Megadeath of 6.5

[Will L.]

Starting this one to keep from derailing another thread any worse. This was when I was working at an oil company test fleet and GM was flipping the tab. A friends all fiberglass body 1/2 ton truck(later became mine) that was down for a season & waiting on $ for rebuild
Weighed 3500 with driver and twin turbo & sort of twin ip spent a season on the Generals dime.

We didn't care how many engines we blew up. When I asked the GM rep he said let me know every 10, and I'll let you know when your on your last 10. We did and he did. 56 went in big fashion. 4 went as spares to regular trucks (me and 1 other guy).

The engineer said it was some of the best stress testing he had ever seen.haha. Seriously they said it did have impact on the future, but never explained what or how. Apparently there wasn't many people willing to donate that much time to oddball engines at the time, other than some boat guys messing with a 4 cylinder, so GM was happy.

Previously mentioned it was more a high 11 truck in the 1/4, but tell the biggest fish caught so 10.90 @ 125.1 was the glory and scariest moment. The world exploded under the front clip just after the traps taking out the steering and a tire. Truck stopped after non stop fishtails in the middle of return road. Knowing we were down to the last of the engines anyways we ended the chaos.

Before I mention parts of how I will throw a disclaimer. I was partners owning a truck equipment shop for a few years where we built bomb disposal trucks for DOD. We also up armoured suburbans, vans, etc so I knew where to get the shielding that we used as a firewall and as a major part of the frame support. We built the original truck this way-and tested it with these engines. Structural engineers helped on that.

Then figure out we worked for a major refinery depot with acess to fuel engineers. Couple that with family that has played in salt flats, to top fuel and nascar. When there were questions we could find most answers quickly. We just used a "down anyways" blown alcohol chassis. If anyone thinks they are going to just jump into this and make it happen without boatloads of contacts let alone big money- forget it. This will kill you. Scott Kalitta told me I had a death wish at one point when we were there on a test and tune and moved his trailer farther away in the lot half joking and half serious. I will admit to the "not me" attitude at the time. I got lucky, so did my side kick. Enough said.

I don't know turbos, period. We had a guy, Tim the thief, that built them for us. We went through around 50 turbos. I later found out he received 90, 3-4 were toasted in testing in his shop, maybe be. He stole the rest. Cost him big time because until GM figured that out they were going to put him on staff at more $ than he ever made- haha, jerk! (Made us look bad)

To be continued...

 

[n8in8or]

Starting this one to keep from derailing another thread any worse. This was when I was working at an oil company test fleet and GM was flipping the tab. A friends all fiberglass body 1/2 ton truck(later became mine) that was down for a season & waiting on $ for rebuild
Weighed 3500 with driver and twin turbo & sort of twin ip spent a season on the Generals dime.

We didn't care how many engines we blew up. When I asked the GM rep he said let me know every 10, and I'll let you know when your on your last 10. We did and he did. 56 went in big fashion. 4 went as spares to regular trucks (me and 1 other guy).

The engineer said it was some of the best stress testing he had ever seen.haha. Seriously they said it did have impact on the future, but never explained what or how. Apparently there wasn't many people willing to donate that much time to oddball engines at the time, other than some boat guys messing with a 4 cylinder, so GM was happy.

Previously mentioned it was more a high 11 truck in the 1/4, but tell the biggest fish caught so 10.90 @ 125.1 was the glory and scariest moment. The world exploded under the front clip just after the traps taking out the steering and a tire. Truck stopped after non stop fishtails in the middle of return road. Knowing we were down to the last of the engines anyways we ended the chaos.

Before I mention parts of how I will throw a disclaimer. I was partners owning a truck equipment shop for a few years where we built bomb disposal trucks for DOD. We also up armoured suburbans, vans, etc so I knew where to get the shielding that we used as a firewall and as a major part of the frame support. We built the original truck this way-and tested it with these engines. Structural engineers helped on that.

Then figure out we worked for a major refinery depot with acess to fuel engineers. Couple that with family that has played in salt flats, to top fuel and nascar. When there were questions we could find most answers quickly. We just used a "down anyways" blown alcohol chassis. If anyone thinks they are going to just jump into this and make it happen without boatloads of contacts let alone big money- forget it. This will kill you. Scott Kalitta told me I had a death wish at one point when we were there on a test and tune and moved his trailer farther away in the lot half joking and half serious. I will admit to the "not me" attitude at the time. I got lucky, so did my side kick. Enough said.

I don't know turbos, period. We had a guy, Tim the thief, that built them for us. We went through around 50 turbos. I later found out he received 90, 3-4 were toasted in testing in his shop, maybe be. He stole the rest. Cost him big time because until GM figured that out they were going to put him on staff at more $ than he ever made- haha, jerk! (Made us look bad)

To be continued...

Thanks for sharing this Will. It's good to hear the paths others have taken with the 6.5...not to try to replicate by any means, but just to know that "things" have been done. Good call on starting a new thread too. Can't wait to hear more.

 

[Husker6.5]

Scott Kalitta, nice. My realm was sprints. The late "Speedy" Bill Smith of Speedway Motors, Jan Opperman, Joe Saldana Jr. (Joey's dad, my dad bought his methanol from Joe Sr. And Joey III is 10 years younger than me), Sammy Swindell, Steve and Kraig Kinser. Eagle Raceway, home of the 1/3 Mile National Championships, is just a few miles east of here. I grew up a pit rat at Eagle back in the mid-60's when my dad had his sprint team. REAL Sprint Cars DON'T have wings!

 

[Will L.]

We machined a girdle not way different from the p400, but not as nice looking either. I've mentioned before that the angle iron set up isnt worth buying- tried one heavier than that. I've said before splayed mains in a 6.5 is a mistake. Guess why.
Girdle studs and head studs were not available from arp or others for this, so we had them made. Same machinist balanced lower rotating assemblies for us- the magic John Gilbert. He did them after hours and I was his gofer doing them. John sold his shop to his and my accountants when he retired.

Scott of J&S Diesel built the IPs. We rotated running one & a spare, while he rebuilt the 3rd. I used dsg gears. Chains didn't last at all. We made our own ip drive gear since we had the mini ip in the front of the real one. Thanks again ya Utah tractor tuggers! It was a high volume, low pressure pump for the non compressed fuels that were injected in the glow plug holes.

Before the second ip was added we did nitrous in GP holes and propane blowing into the compressors for the burn and cooling effect the same as done for Shelby and suggested to Goodfellow (not sure if he did it or not). Later we shot small amount into the exhaust before the turbine wheel to out the flame of oxide fuels to keep them from cooking the turbine. It made a brighter, hotter flame out the end, but cooled the turbos. That info and more importantly how to make it work was shared by a top fuel legend that wanted to see turbos compete with superchargers, but couldn't publicly talk down his sponsors.

We also did bottled O2 into the GP holes at one point and blocked off intake manifold. OMG don't try this without bomb proof casing. Learn from NASA Apollo 1. This does lead to my still working invention, but people die all the time trying these experiments.

We had to preheat the engine oil because of viscosity and did the same with the diesel fuel- hot fuel compresses better in the pump.

The key to power is more fuel. Oxide fuels like nitromethane doesn't mix with conventional hydrocarbon fuels, nitropropane does. There are catalysts that can combine the two and allow flashed hydrocarbons to ignite them. DO NOT EXPERIMENT WITH THIS. YOU WILL DIE! If the actual explosion doesn't kill you with fragmented metal, the pressure wave can. The fumes are toxic as can be. We had petrochemists and chemical engineers volunteer their time-a lot of it- The whole idea is to make it on the edge of stable / unstable as possible just waiting for the impact of the diesel powered compression to set it off.

For those never around oxyfuels- a hammer strike will ignite both nitromethane , and heated nitropropane.

So did we blow up engines because we couldn't make them right? Not in my opinion. It was like a misstep in attempting a new racing fuel- like the Neanderthals. A better option was there. The over all yield is less than a regular nitro engine.

Difference is it blows out the turbo fan in reverse leaving the turbo barely damaged instead of a supercharger's lobes catching hell and shearing high tension bolts. Once you learn to use 8/32 screws to mount turbos, they just pop off and swing on a safety cable. Being mounted below the head allowed the exploding fuels to escape easier, and only 1 turbo ever got hit by rod/piston out the side of the block.

Most engine failures resulted in the entire cradle, crank shaft pieces and rods hitting the ground. We lost a front tire once and 2 rear tires to fod.

Most engine failures happened in the shop, not at the track. None of our runs were sanctioned events. We only ran test and tunes. Killing ourselves is one thing, killing a competitor in a lane next to us is something different - we were dumb a****s, not a-holes.

It was more fuel testing than engines in the end, but since mutual knowledge was obtained it's all good. It also fulfilled my need for speed before I killed myself so good for me too.

Is it fair to say they were 6.5 diesels? I vote yes. It was that engine. We had to use diesel, the fuel geniuses figured out long ago you can't do it with gas, kerosene, or anything lighter in the BTU department. And unlike pure or alcohol mixed nitromethane it needs rediculous high compression to work (nitro engines are very low compression). There there are ton of things I'd do different now, but that ship has sailed and sunk.

Before it gets asked, we planned on altering it and going to Utah with it, but to many different rules apply, and since we toasted our engine supply it just wasnt worth it. Maybe if I made my living selling 6.5 stuff then yeah. I believe I know how to beat Heaths record without oxyfuels, but I think it and he holds it, so he wins. Different era anyways. GM does not care about worlds fastest 7.3 IDI or 3.0 IDI anymore than 6.5 IDI so no funding there.

My personal 6.5s that were street engines have done better because of things learned. Hopefully I can help who really needs it, some guy just trying to get to work on time instead of his truck breaking down, so he doesn't go buy a Kia.

 

[WarWagon]

I have seen this done at drag strips - engine only lasts 1/4 mile maybe. Then the engine is intentionally blown at the end of the run as the looser can demand and get the engine under some rules. The details of that are fuzzy.

Curious as to what you can share along with "this thread is worthless without pics" if non-disclosure doesn't play into it. Oh, that 'Old GM' is bankrupt anyway...

 

[Will L.]

There's a ton of people that helped in this, and I know 1 of them reads this as a nonmember, just from interest and a hatred of all things 6.5, but is a good guy. (Not really, just our project). I don't mention most of the names because most of them alive could say who they are, and can announce they are giving autographs and will draw a crowd. So throwing their involvement in here does them no magic unless you want to for fun (especially you John ya scratchy voice load mouth great driver and better person you!) Mac Tools Rules.

Any questions I can answer with out offending long ago friends I will, but not much else to tell.

 

[n8in8or]

There's a ton of people that helped in this, and I know 1 of them reads this as a nonmember, just from interest and a hatred of all things 6.5, but is a good guy. (Not really, just our project). I don't mention most of the names because most of them alive could say who they are, and can announce they are giving autographs and will draw a crowd. So throwing their involvement in here does them no magic unless you want to for fun (especially you John ya scratchy voice load mouth great driver and better person you!) Mac Tools Rules.

Any questions I can answer with out offending long ago friends I will, but not much else to tell.

I had never read that the angle iron girdles were worthless. I wish I had known that 6 months ago....

Thanks for sharing your experiences Will, if for nothing else it warms my heart knowing some guys have tried some serious stuff in the past and things like girdles working or not working came out of that.

So based on your experiences, can you speak anymore on compression - especially on a pure diesel-fed engine? Also compression and wmi or propane would be interesting to hear as well.

 

[Will L.]

I have seen this done at drag strips - engine only lasts 1/4 mile maybe. Then the engine is intentionally blown at the end of the run as the looser can demand and get the engine under some rules. The details of that are fuzzy.

Curious as to what you can share along with "this thread is worthless without pics" if non-disclosure doesn't play into it. Oh, that 'Old GM' is bankrupt anyway...

No no disclosure I worry about, except my word to friends. I'll never tell the fuel mix, compression ratio. Valve changes and cam wouldn't run on diesel only anyways.

I have a couple snapshots somewhere, but not many. I was never big on pictures. My youngest son is in double digit age and if not for my wife I would only have 4 pictures of him. Older boy drove me in my hummer to the store earlier, and same thing. Maybe 6 or 7 of him.

The friend that did take a lot of pics and a couple videos died in his house fire in '05. I heard somebody has a vhs of a run doing an 11.7, but never saw it. If it shows up YouTube, it will be obvious.

The truck -minus half the 6.5 was put back together with a Merlin 660 on alcohol By a guy in Washington. He lenghtend it a couple feet so we can see the difference, plus headers instead of 2 half stacks.

We never raced against anyone at the track where they could tech down an engine. Took $ from a couple jerks at the illegal drags a time or two, more to shut them up than the cash.

 

[NVW]

Interesting thread Will, sounds like you could have used a Therapist.

 

[Will L.]

I shouldn't say angle iron ones are worthless, they just don't help very much. Most broken cranks in 6.5s stemmed from bad balancers in my experience. I know the main web issue, but unless you tie int the front and back corners your only linking all the weak links together. It could help some, in just the right circumstances.

Compression, propane, wmi:

Propane does most of the same thing as water METH injection. Cooling advantages and adding a propellant to get a quicker/ more complete burn of the diesel.
Wmi does clear carbon and soot better, even just water. But the water- steam has some adverse effects on engine oil. If you run it - oil samples are your friend.

Im not the go to guy for wmi, but propane I've done a lot of. It drops your iat greatly if done right. Pre and post turbo both have advantage/disadvantage so it depends what your after. If not for the refilling pain I would have just run propane on my N/A hummer instead of adding the gm6 for the power. Probably should have, but I want my wife to drive the truck without hating me.

Compression in a DD is best left high on an IDI engine IMO. Why lower the compression to make up for it with a turbo? If your after ultimate power then you need a supercharger anyways. Supercharger's are for power. Turbos are for a higher efficiency. If you want a bit of both overlap the dang cam and go backwards to a blower. Just dont tell the epa.

The only reason to use a +.010 head gasket is over torque and valve clearance- which most of you power chasers should be doing. Max duration, max the lift by cam and rockers (forgot and meant to say 1.75 rollers used on mine -even before the boom fuels). The cylinder has to breathe people. If you don't know how to clay a piston time to learn.

When you get into higher compression I tell people cometics don't work on a 6.5. They can and are needed when you get stupid high pressures. But you have to install them and hydro test them to learn the torque for your heads. Otherwise I like Felpro on the street.

 

[Will L.]

Interesting thread Will, sounds like you could have used a Therapist.

Unspaced.

 

[Husker6.5]

Ah yes, the magic amount of nitro in the methanol to make it light off without putting a rod through the block. Dad consulted with Vic Edelbrock more than once on fuel/fueling issues when they built that SBC monster for the car. At 12.5:1 compression they were running on the ragged edge of pre-combustion even on methanol, but still needed just the exact amount of nitro in the mix so that the spark would light it off.

 

[Will L.]

WarWagon, I texted the wife and asked if she knew where pics were of my old race truck. She said "this one?" Omg race not hot rod low rider build. She's going to look around for it. I ruined a lot of things along the way...thought you all could laugh at this before we channeled the body and 6 point hydraulics later...

Poor dodge. Forgot I owned that. Recovered memory therapy NVW? I think I was 14 at the time.

 

[NVW]

WarWagon, I texted the wife and asked if she knew where pics were of my old race truck. She said "this one?" Omg race not hot rod low rider build. She's going to look around for it. I ruined a lot of things along the way...thought you all could laugh at this before we channeled the body and 6 point hydraulics later...
View attachment 47601
Poor dodge. Forgot I owned that. Recovered memory therapy NVW? I think I was 14 at the time.

I sure hope you weren't any older than that.

 

[n8in8or]

I sure hope you weren't any older than that.

HA!

 

[Will L.]

In my defense channeling 8" out of the body made the 12" chop top match, and that was after tacking in place, no where near finished. Oxy/acet torch and clothes hanger welding was quite the lesson. Not enough bondo in the world. My dad just laughed and shook his head. The bed did a 45* rearward raise 6' off the ground and spun in a circle, or could dump, based on valve position. Butterfly opening snug top shell. I was overtaken by low rider trucks when they came out and was still influenced by 50's lead sleds.

Told you guys I'm an idiot sometimes. The rest of the time I sleep.

 

[Husker6.5]

Reminds me of my old 72 Dodge Adventure Sport 1/2 ton I had back in the early 90's.

 

[Burning oil]

Got a Hemi in it?

 

[WarWagon]

Will, remind me NOT to ask you "How to change the oil"!

I mean any sane procedure is like block drive wheels, set parking brake, engine off sort of thing before you even start.

Nooooo! Not Will!

Will's Quick Drain Oil Change:

Step One: Get going over 100 MPH.

Step Two: Rip off oil pan or knock large hole(s) in oil pan while doing over 100 MPH at full power. Optional alternative drain procedures: Knock hole(s) in block or blow off or hole oil filter.

I mean doing this procedure at over 100MPH is clearly the reason you are warning us about this 6.5 drag race thing.

Personally It's bad enough I get a bunch of old oil in the front diff skid plate. Laying down a 1/4 mile oil slick and getting oil all over everything on the underside... I mean I just don't Need that kind of rustproofing out here and don't want to get a truckload of oil adsorb to spread out for clean up.

Now if I misplace the oil drain plug wrench or the plug gets stuck I may have to try this.

 

[Husker6.5]

Got a Hemi in it?

Nah, it was just a 360 2bbl beast. Gas gauge didn't work, so I could approximate how full the tank was by listening to the pitch of the fuel sloshing around in the tank behind the seat! As long as I kept my foot out of it, mileage wasn't too bad. Power drums front and rear. Had to go up on the sidewalk and sideswipe a three story brick building at 35mph in rush hour traffic to keep from assholing a minivan when the master cylinder failed. No real damage to the building, just MoPar turquoise green paint scrapes in the brick. Was able to take the jack handle and pry out the passenger front fender enough off the tire to limp it home. Swapped the front clip and bumper off of a MoPar orange '73 pickup, talk about a hideous color combo!. That ride into the brick wall was almost as much fun as two months before when I had to take the Interstate median at 80 mph when it blew out a wheel cylinder when I tried to brake to avoid being cut off by a semi. I think at almost to its fourth roll over of the odometer (it was at just over 375K) it was trying to tell me something as three months after the brick wall incident I was turning the corner to my house and when I straightened the wheel the truck kept turning. The steering gear box was still bolted to the small piece of frame rail that had tore loose from the rest of the frame!