GM 6.5 tdsl marriage with a Allison 1000 5 spd 4WD

[hp650]

starting on this project and I would appretiate any and all info on it. Marriage of a 6.5 tdsl (heath cam/lifter sprgs/heath computer to the max!) with a allison 1000 pree 2004. I believe that the transmission will match the bell housing on the 6.5 (bolt holes anyone?) Torque converter matchup? I have the Allison factory laptop programming software for adjusting shift points. I have the Allison 1000 manuals and it seems that all that is needed is a tps on the pedal to give the allison throttle position.
Any opinions or thoughts? Any and all info would be a great. Thinking I have this all under controll, but you know how it goes?

IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE THAT HAS MARRIED A 6.5 WITH A ALLISON 1000 5SPD OR 6 SPD?

 

[great white]

No advice for ya, but i'm interested.

I'm not sure of the Allison, but you may need a standalone controller for the transmission unless the allison is already a separate TCM.

You're probably going to hear this a couple times too:

Why?

The 4L80E can take what the 6.5 can dish out fairly easily and it can be built up to handle more at a lower cost than slipping in an allison.

I've also heard the allison eats up a lot of power in the transmission to the rear wheels. Probably not as big a concern with a duramax, but with a 200-ish HP 6.5......well, it matters. Someone else will have to comment on the power loss through and alison compared to a 4L80E though, I'm just not sure either way.

..Marriage of a 6.5 tdsl (heath cam/lifter sprgs/heath computer to the max!) with a allison 1000 pree 2004....

Umm, what's a 6.5 TDSL? Ya got me on that acronym.....


"Heath Cam/lifter/springs"?

When did Heath Diesel start selling a different cam?

<Curiosity makes him type in Heath diesel web site address to look>

 

[great white]

I'd consider swapping in an allison for the tap shifter function alone.

It would make a nice foundation for a cummins swap later on too.....

 

[hp650]

quick update, just checked the 1000 /2000 manual (techran manual "GM") for the TCM to funktion, it needs following:
1/ throttle position sensor- standalone or the pedal modified on the 98 ext cab dually to take the 2nd TPS. should be a no brainer!Nuts and bolts..
2/ engine speed sensor is already in allison bell housing.
3/ hook up neutral safety swith so it does not start in gear//run over anybody, but a must is a exception to the safety swith, if OBUMMER is in the back of my dually , run him over without my knowledge!!!!!!

I understand the thought on the 4LO80E, I have one here, that is the trans that I was going to install i, but by the time I get a real rebuild Raptor or etc. with all the right stuff in it to be able to haul 18000 lbs every once in a while it's 4 grand. I could do the rebuild myself but it would be my time and 1700$ in parts. I am booked with busconversions/DD 60 engine repowers with the B500 and ZF in back of them so I have no time to do my own. I rebuild the big Allisons and the ZF,s and pump up the Series 60's to 720 HP. I do the work for the racers, who want to be the first out of the center of the ring with their rigs (it's a status symbol among them!)

Let me touch bases on the 6.5 TDS in short for turbodiesel! When I don't have the answer to a problem on my engine builds or trans build, I go to the allison and detroit diesel engeneers, so in short the two companies that we have that are still in business and doing good and who I trust, Peninsular, and Bill Heath. Bill runs a 6.2 TDSL with 40 some psi boost with water injection, and runs the GM C1500 or 2500 down the saltlake flats @ about 160 MPH 2X 3 miles and after that he can drive it home on cruise controll if he would want to. The only nonstock items on his 6.2 TD is the computer and the camshaft by comp cams and a few minor things that are ARP head bolts and ARP main bolts.

So I bought his kit for my 1998 Ext Cab 6.5TD with his words that after working with GM as their skunk works in the beginning he came up with this kit, if you install it into a 6.5 TD, the normal mildly tuned Duramax con't hold with it........,,, and your 6.5TD will do everything right . Bill is a man of his word, so if it is not right I will let you guys know about it! My reason for sticking with the 6.5TD is that I am retired military and the Hummve saved my AxS a few times. Also the the mechanic from the Chevy garage drinks a beers with us and filled us in on the duramax. If you need to pull the turbo or work on any part of the engine the CAB has to be pulled off,,,, that is insanity to the max and that is not my cup of tee.
I love the looks, the allison ride of the duramax and the comfortable features of the cab. but the 40k and not being able to work on it on the side of the road leaves me out of the buying mood (or financing mood!)
Please do not be insulted if you drive a Duramax I just can't afford to be stuck on the side of the road and not being able to work on it, with a load of farm animals about 18.000lbs. As we all know it would be very expensive to get 2 tows, our animals need food and water or they die...
this is my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless you can convince me otherwise!!!!!

 

[great white]

Yup, I've had a couple face to face talks with Bill myself.

He sourced and ordered my optimizer for me while I was there.

The 6.5 TDSL threw me off, most refer to it as 6.5 TD.

Like yourself, I also like the relatively cheap parts and ease of service of the 6.5 TD.

As to the TPS, Ferminator is running a Duramx/Allison in his 94 (?) burb conversion and using the 6.5 APP so it must be doable.

 

[WarWagon]

First the body style the 6.5TD comes in is rated to tow 11,500 LBS MAX with a 5th wheel/gooseneck and 454. Engine aside the truck isn't rated to tow 18000 LBS. (Period.)
After the wreck questions get asked about weight limits. You would have the wreck because something broke from the truck frame to lug nuts coming off with the busted studs attached. Something else to have your duals depart through the fender at 55 MPH on The Grapevine and you skid to a stop on the rear brake drum. My friend did this and was lucky enough to be in a straight section and did not wreck his 1995 454 dually. Tore stuff up, yes.

Transmissions can be rebuilt here for $995.00 in and out on 4x4's. Includes rebuilt converter.

Now here is where I agree with your project. The 4L80E can't hold $hit for compression braking. The 2nd gear overrun clutch is weak as well as the TCC clutch. I got 50K out of mine, from rebuild, with most of the miles without 2nd gear manual compression braking as this was the 1st part to burn out with the extreme towing I do - 10% grades near the 8500 LBS limit. Sure it is a strong transmission otherwise esp. with a better converter clutch. The TCC clutch failed and caused the next rebuild.

Bill Heath isn't the ultimate 6.5 answer. His Turbo Master gets some results (+10 MPH MPG stays the same) but it is best to drop the GM8 advise and go with a bigger turbo like the ATT kit or Holset some are playing with. 3MPG better (10.4 MPG) towing with the ATT vs. GM3 turbo and 12 MPH faster at 55 MPH towing 10% grades. (7MPG at 43 MPH with a turbomaster GM3.) He doesn't sell the turbo setup he used for the 150MPH run - just the IMO restrictive GM8 and a TM.

Fords have to have the cab pulled off. Never seen that for the Dmax and it looks like I could pull the turbo w/o that. Never had the need with the other Dmax trucks my broker has that have 350K towing miles on em. Seriously make sure you have the proper tool for the job as 18K is too big of a job for the 6.5 platform to do safely.

 

[Burning oil]

Bell housing will bolt to a 6.5, don't know about flywheel but I bet it will also.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

The ALLISON will bolt right up no problems, and teh 4L80E flexplate will bolt right up to the pads of the ALLISON converter. This is assuming you are using teh GM SAE #7 bellhousing like GM used in the 2500/3500 trucks. You MAY have to trim the very top 7 th mounting hole off of it, and you will definately have to make your own braces for teh bottom 2 atatching bolt holes for teh ALLISON bellhousing. It REALLY needs to be bolted up using all 9 bolts, not 6 like teh 4L80E is to the 6.5. The ALLISON bellhousing is strong, but will not hold up to vibrations and are known to break if not properly supported with all the bolts and braces. Also the ALLISON is a power robbing son of a gun. Teh 6.5 even fully built will be lucky to get up close to what a LB7 can do with just a plug in box, and plan on losing a good 20% of your power to the ALLISON not to mention the parisitic draw of all the internal mass at higher RPM's. I'm guessing you have access to the ALLISON DOC software since you say you have teh software to program the TCM. You will need to find a mechanical injected calibration file and go that route most likely as I HIGHLY doubt the 6.5 ECM can output J1939 GM CAN BUS data to the TCM to go the GM calibration route, and most any other drive by wire calibration is going to use generic J1939 data, so I just don't see how you can make the 6.5 ECM output a throttle signal to the TCM. It's doable, but personally you woud be money ahead to go with a 4L80E trans by the time you factor in modifying teh trans tunnel to clear the bellhousing if you leave the 6.5 in the stock location. In my set-up the trans sits about 2 1/2"s forward due to the differrence in engines, and my bellhousing is TIGHT to the floorboard even after I made a good sized bubble in it.

 

[great white]

The ALLISON will bolt right up no problems, and teh 4L80E flexplate will bolt right up to the pads of the ALLISON converter. This is assuming you are using teh GM SAE #7 bellhousing like GM used in the 2500/3500 trucks. You MAY have to trim the very top 7 th mounting hole off of it, and you will definately have to make your own braces for teh bottom 2 atatching bolt holes for teh ALLISON bellhousing. It REALLY needs to be bolted up using all 9 bolts, not 6 like teh 4L80E is to the 6.5. The ALLISON bellhousing is strong, but will not hold up to vibrations and are known to break if not properly supported with all the bolts and braces. Also the ALLISON is a power robbing son of a gun. Teh 6.5 even fully built will be lucky to get up close to what a LB7 can do with just a plug in box, and plan on losing a good 20% of your power to the ALLISON not to mention the parisitic draw of all the internal mass at higher RPM's. I'm guessing you have access to the ALLISON DOC software since you say you have teh software to program the TCM. You will need to find a mechanical injected calibration file and go that route most likely as I HIGHLY doubt the 6.5 ECM can output J1939 GM CAN BUS data to the TCM to go the GM calibration route, and most any other drive by wire calibration is going to use generic J1939 data, so I just don't see how you can make the 6.5 ECM output a throttle signal to the TCM. It's doable, but personally you woud be money ahead to go with a 4L80E trans by the time you factor in modifying teh trans tunnel to clear the bellhousing if you leave the 6.5 in the stock location. In my set-up the trans sits about 2 1/2"s forward due to the differrence in engines, and my bellhousing is TIGHT to the floorboard even after I made a good sized bubble in it.

Only 20% for an Allison in parasitic loss?

I've seen the same claim for the 4L80E and drivetrain loss.

That's pretty much on par for each.

 

[6.2 turbo]

I'm not happy with my 4l80-e. It can't hold the power that my 6.5 makes. Also it doesn't hold back in second.

 

[tanman_2006]

IMO our frames can take the beating of 18,000#, no it isn't recomended. You should beef up the rear suspension with some form of anti-sway, possibly airbags, new mounting hardware, and i would install energy suspension bushings too. Our brakes aren't "rated" for that abuse but i have pulled over 20K to a stop them, I prefer drums for larger loads but I'm sure an updated disk brake set up would work too. As mentioned earlier wheel studs are commonly over looked when it comes to vehicle check ups and can be weakened overtime when towing as heavy as you are planning.

IMO I would go built 4L80 with triple disc low stall converter first just because it is easier to set up. If I went allison it would only be to get the .6:1 OD in the 6 speed allison, I don't see the advantage in changing to a trans with nearly the same ratio OD (JMO take it for what it is). I am very interested in how this goes for you GOOD LUCK!

 

[hp650]

OK I'm gonna answer the safety first (because that is the most important.) My dually is 11,500GVW, DMV sais or I should say in florida I pay to be able to have a max load of 5900 lbs which brings me over the GVW, but that is the law according to DMV. Who am I to argue with that! Soooooo, my gooseneck has a GVW of 18,200 lbs of which 3500lbs is the weight of the gooseneck, so I can load lets say 15,000lbs. I can move my axels 6 feet to balance my load, as everybody knows the further forward i haave the axels the less weight is on the bed of the dually, I can usually look and see the weight ratio on the dually axels. I carried about 450 concrete blocks,ea block weighing about 30 lbs. This is about 13,500 lbs plus the gooseneck which put me @ around the legal limit of the law in florida!!!! I pulled this @ 65 to 70 MPH with A/.C running with cruise controll on. As you all know we in Florida do not have much hills to conquer and the trip with the blocks 3 times in a row was 110 miles.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Only 20% for an Allison in parasitic loss?

I've seen the same claim for the 4L80E and drivetrain loss.

That's pretty much on par for each.

20% in direct is about what you normally see out of them as the early LB7's seen right at a 20% drop in HP from the 300HP crank to roughly 240HP at the wheels(a built trans takes quite a bit more HP to run due to the added line pressure). This is also assuming that GM rates the crank HP accurately as this has been disputed several times that GM is sandbagging the HP rating on the DURAMAX's, but I don't know of anybody who has dyno'd an actual engine to see how accurate it is. I believe the 4L80E is closer to 12-15% in direct is what most say they have seen, not to mention how many pounds of rotational mass you save by running the 4L80E VS the ALLISON.

I'm not happy with my 4l80-e. It can't hold the power that my 6.5 makes. Also it doesn't hold back in second.

There are guys out there running well over 1000HP through the 4L80E's with minor modifications. And yes I'm talking about a few 1000+HP DURAMAX's. Mike Woods's MUSTANG that run's 9 second 1/4 mile passes dyno's with his DURAMAX engine in excess of 1200HP through a 4L80E trans, and he also has a GEAR VENDOR behind it for an extra overdrive. As for teh 2nd holding, don't know much about that one. The 4L80E can take some serious abuse, and I believe there only real downfall has been 4th gear behind high HP engines. There was a rumor awhile back that the only reason the DURAMAX guys went to the DURAFLITE was because nobody could get a 4L80E to hold up in OD, but 1st, 2nd, and 3rd held just fine in even a 6,000 pound race truck. As for the 6 speed, this may actually be an easier route to go. I'm still waiting to hear back, but somebody on another forum is trying to finish up his 12 valve BLAZER with a 6 speed ALLISON conversion using a GM TCM calibration.

 

[great white]

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showt...son-1000-2000-2400-info-and-swap-guide-thread

Lots of info there....

 

[6.2 turbo]

The band for 2nd was broken,apparently china. I took the trans completely apart last night.

 

[Ed HD]

Not sure how much your buddy from the dealership had to drink, but he obviously was working at a different dealer than he claimed. The Duramax does not require the cab to be removed to do any work, including head gaskets. That is all Fords 04 and newer, starting with the 6.0L Powerstroke, that require cab removal.

 

[hp650]

Not sure how much your buddy from the dealership had to drink, but he obviously was working at a different dealer than he claimed. The Duramax does not require the cab to be removed to do any work, including head gaskets. That is all Fords 04 and newer, starting with the 6.0L Powerstroke, that require cab removal.

Today, for the 6th or seventh time I stopped @ Tractor Supply to buy feed for our goats , cows, chickens and mule, since this area is cow country, everybody stops here (ranchers, farmers and the working hands.. Lot of 2500's, 3500's and Duramax,s galore. This place has always been my research dept. as far as owners with their trucks is concerned. Today, once again, (my wife wen to shop) I walked over to a guy was sitting in his 2009 C2500 Duramax and asked him to pop his hood so I can clime in for a look. After the guy told me that his fuel mileage was 13 mpg, whether he towed or not. Two days ago I stopped here and the same story from a snowbird from Michigan, he was towing a fifth wheel, the mileage was 14 mpg, but when he towed, it was 11 mpg...Now to get back to the engine compartment it does look good. I also seems that it is somewhat accessible, the turbo is another story. But the fluid you have to fill it with for the new recirculating system (EPA) is very expensive.
My chevy mechanic friend who comes and does the timing computer on our 6.5's does say, for the new 6.6 silverados, cab comes off!!!!! This is a pretty good chevy dealer in the area! This is the info I can go by, I believe you guys that the 6.6 duramax is a good engine but, I have talked to to many individuals, with problems (nightmares!) and I would like to buy one, but because of the problems with people that I encounter I will not.
I am convinced the Bill Heath does not lie about his product and the 500 HP with almost 785 ft lbs of torque is real. I will take one of our 6.5 engines and try it!
What I can tell you is that my 98 C3500 dually gets 18 to 22 mpg when towing, but it only gets about 13 mpg towing heavier loads. I am not sold on the jap aluminium engine. Although I was the 2nd mechanic building double KKK turbo 934 Porsche engines for a german racing team.

 

[hp650]

The ALLISON will bolt right up no problems, and teh 4L80E flexplate will bolt right up to the pads of the ALLISON converter. This is assuming you are using teh GM SAE #7 bellhousing like GM used in the 2500/3500 trucks. You MAY have to trim the very top 7 th mounting hole off of it, and you will definately have to make your own braces for teh bottom 2 atatching bolt holes for teh ALLISON bellhousing. It REALLY needs to be bolted up using all 9 bolts, not 6 like teh 4L80E is to the 6.5. The ALLISON bellhousing is strong, but will not hold up to vibrations and are known to break if not properly supported with all the bolts and braces. Also the ALLISON is a power robbing son of a gun. Teh 6.5 even fully built will be lucky to get up close to what a LB7 can do with just a plug in box, and plan on losing a good 20% of your power to the ALLISON not to mention the parisitic draw of all the internal mass at higher RPM's. I'm guessing you have access to the ALLISON DOC software since you say you have teh software to program the TCM. You will need to find a mechanical injected calibration file and go that route most likely as I HIGHLY doubt the 6.5 ECM can output J1939 GM CAN BUS data to the TCM to go the GM calibration route, and most any other drive by wire calibration is going to use generic J1939 data, so I just don't see how you can make the 6.5 ECM output a throttle signal to the TCM. It's doable, but personally you woud be money ahead to go with a 4L80E trans by the time you factor in modifying teh trans tunnel to clear the bellhousing if you leave the 6.5 in the stock location. In my set-up the trans sits about 2 1/2"s forward due to the differrence in engines, and my bellhousing is TIGHT to the floorboard even after I made a good sized bubble in it.

The only thing that the can bus is needed for is for the diagnostic link connector(J1939=3 wires into the TCM,#29,31,32) for the programming and getting the codes. The needed external tps will (3 wires#9,19,20) give the tcm all needed One wire gives the tps 5vdc the return voltage from the tps will give the tcm the exact throttle position, with the other data collected from all the other sensors the tcm will be able to shift at the right moment... All other connections needed, are simply wires to the right places! Pos., Neg.,shift linkage, Ign switch, the J1939 Can bus connector is an option, that is tied in at the vehicle production run, but can be done without as a one off custom job...
I just married a 1956 Flexible Bus with a 2001 series fifty (the 4 cylinder 60 series) with a 1989 ZF Eco-Mat 1st generation Electronic TCU 5 speed 18% overdrive with the 50 series pumped up to 420 HP with 1350 ft lbs of torque @ 1350 rpm. in this case the Detroit Diesel 50 ser. does not talk with the transmission and the transmission operates in the ranges through the standalone TPS, on the throttle with the engine tps on the right ZF TPS on the left of the throttle pedal....It workes A1>>>>

 

[6.2 turbo]

''I am convinced the Bill Heath does not lie about his product and the 500 HP with almost 785 ft lbs of torque is real. I will take one of our 6.5 engines and try it! '' .
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[TD]I tried a high compression 6.5, with 40 psi boost. This is what happened.[/TD]
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[hp650]

''I am convinced the Bill Heath does not lie about his product and the 500 HP with almost 785 ft lbs of torque is real. I will take one of our 6.5 engines and try it! '' .

I tried a high compression 6.5, with 40 psi boost. This is what happened.

When I serving in our US Army in Germany, I went to work for a german racing team that started to race the Porsche 934 and I was involved in the R & D of the 6 cylinder boxer fuel injected turbo. We took a normal 930 engine, turbod engine and slapped a nother turbo on to it. We had no idea how it would do. I mounted a adjustable waste gate onto the exhaust and drove it up to werk 1 in Stutgart, germany to put it up on the dyno. (Porsche always helped the racers!) We took the engine and ran it on the dyno turning the boost up until something blew up on the engine. Once something blew. we took all the pieces and looked where the week link was and went to the manufacturer of that part, and together with them designed it to be better stronger. After receiving thew new part we put another enginr together with the new part and took it to Porsche and blew it up again and had the next week link redesigned.
We did this until we had a 790 horsepower dual turbo engine and then raced it and the team won everithing in europe with it, till all the teams came up to par, than the R & D started again and so developed the 962 engine that won everithing again.
I could put down all the parts that were redesigned(it was everything in the engine, but not the block! Sooo, take a look at the website and read the making of the 6.2 TD that he runs! He has been at it for 20 years! I'm going to try his formula and see where it goes maybe I can contribute with my experience and come up with something nice and reliable and with power to spare!