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Real time tuning for OBDII 6.5's? maybe.....just maybe

I've put out some queries to the EFI live folks, hopefully we can get them to come to the table with some neat tools, but what you are playing with holds some glimmer of hope as well, if not real time, better than no time or send away tuning that we have as options now.

I have a place where I can make a tweak here/there and then run it to see if things get better or worse, so semi-real time maybe with stuff you are playing with ?
 
great white said:
It's a slow process if you're waiting for "real time tuning" my friend.

But you can flash your own 6.5 right now if you want to drop about a $1000 on the software......
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You know, that is not alot of money if you own more than one 6.5TD. Think about it, Two Heath Tunes will cost you that much and you may not like them. How hard is it to retune a pcm with this setup ? Assume your talking to an old wrench that "tuned" diesels by restacking the torque group, not using a laptop....:D
Could you go into more detail on the westers VDF ?? Is that like the interface or something ?
 
Acesneights1 said:
Could you go into more detail on the westers VDF ??
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It's the definition file, Kenny. Has all the 'boxes' you can put data into, each addressed to a specific tunable parameter.
 
Acesneights1 said:
So what is the tunercat then ? I was poking around westers garage, lots of stuff. BTW they have a realtime program for 6.5TD
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Tunercat II is the software interface, like efilive for duramax. It also requires it's special hardware interface to connect to the trucks OBDII port.

In order for tunercat II to understand the calibration written in the PCM, it needs a vehicle definition file otherwise known as a VDF. It's like tunercat speaks English and the PCM speaks french, the vdf translates so they are both speaking English.

Westers offers tuning software for the 6.5 and duramax, but it costs 1800 bucks. It's essentially tunercat II with the VDF's already in it. While 1800 bucks is outside of most folks reach with these old trucks, Lyndon has graciously offered his 6.5 VDF's for sale (99 bucks each) for those with tunercatII already. It's a pretty tight knit community (tunercat II owners) so there's been a gentlemen's agreement on not redistributing it (well, legally buyers can't distribute it either).Tunercat is no longer available for purchase (unless you find a back door like I did;))so everyone pretty much knows who has what.

Westers offers real time tuning for the 411 PCM and LB7 PCM's.

Westers tuning software cannot do real time tuning on the 6.5, I've talked to Lyndon on this.

Oddly enough, the real time tuning PCMs supported by westers are the same PCM's that Roadrunner from Moates supports. Westers web site even directs you to Moates Roadrunner emulator site for the drivers. But it's not a simple plug into the OBDII port and go at it real time. The PCM circuit board has to be modified and more hardware installed. Basically, the flash chip is desoldered from the surface mount board, then the emulator header is soldered on, then the emulator is installed in the PCM. I have the hardware sitting on my shelf waiting for the day I do an LB7 swap like Ferm did, but that's another discussion for another day.

Unfortunately, the architecture of the 6.5's PCm is significantly different from the LB7 PCM (and the 411) so real time tuning is not possible through Lyndon right now. That's what I'm working on....

What I'm talking about is a blending of supported hardware and software between obdI and OBDII to get some rare support for our "bastard child" PCM's.....
 
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Just out of curiosity have you looked into a standalone like Megasquirt? I am installing one in my car currently but I really havent gotten too far into it yet but they do say it is compatible in diesels. They also make a stand alone trans controller that will work with the 4L80 so maybe you could run both and eliminate the factory PCM or atleast most of its function?
 
saturntech95 said:
Just out of curiosity have you looked into a standalone like Megasquirt? I am installing one in my car currently but I really havent gotten too far into it yet but they do say it is compatible in diesels. They also make a stand alone trans controller that will work with the 4L80 so maybe you could run both and eliminate the factory PCM or atleast most of its function?
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Have looked, not interested.

:)
 
Very good post GW, It makes more sense now. Thanks. BTW Hat's off to you. way beyond anything I'm capable of. My othr question althoug maybe off base is, I know in my OBD1 Tahoe when I installed a new flash/prom whatever you call it(chip) Bill Heath told me it would "take a little bit" for the truck to relearn the flash. Will that be an obstacle for this ? If I understand this right you want to make it so it would be like swapping differntly tuned eproms without actually doing it but instead reprogramming the installed one on the fly.
 
Acesneights1 said:
Very good post GW, It makes more sense now. Thanks. BTW Hat's off to you. way beyond anything I'm capable of. My othr question althoug maybe off base is, I know in my OBD1 Tahoe when I installed a new flash/prom whatever you call it(chip) Bill Heath told me it would "take a little bit" for the truck to relearn the flash.
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I haven't been inside and OBDI truck program, but I'll bet the ECM has an "adaptive" program in it that adjusts some of it's parameters for optimal running. Most of the newer OBDII vehicles apply "fuzzy logic" to learn the drivers style, vehicle age, wear etc. My 2004 300M has just such and adaptive program built into the 42le transmission subroutines, learns how I drive and adjusts shift points, lockup, etc. One of the guys on the board that deals with OBDI can probably give you a more accurate explanation and whether or not this is what's going on in an OBDI truck.

Acesneights1 said:
Will that be an obstacle for this ?
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Nope, it actually makes things easier :)

Acesneights1 said:
If I understand this right you want to make it so it would be like swapping differntly tuned eproms without actually doing it but instead reprogramming the installed one on the fly.
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Sort of.

What an emulator allows you to do is adjust a specific point without flashing the entire program again.

For example: If I have a flat spot at 2300 rpm and want to adjust the fueling at that point, I pull off to the side of the road, open the programming software, turn up the fuel only at that point, then pull back on to the road and see if it works as planned.

The emulator replaces the flash chip and allows you to adjust any point independently of the rest of the program. IOW, it allows you to flash the one single thing you adjusted instead of a complete upload. There's not a real difference between this and a complete reflash with what you can adjust, the big difference is the time saved when dialing it in.

It's also a little early to tell right now, but installing an emulator into the 6.5 PCm opens up the possibility of switchable tunes for OBDII trucks. Again, waaaaay too early to say either way, but the basic principles are there....

:)
 
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Woody35 said:
Any updates from Moates?
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Nope.

I may be shelving the project.

Seriously considering ramping up for and LB7 swap in the future, so funds will probably no longer be spent in development of 6.5 stuff.

:(

Real time tuning on an LB7 is a simple as installing my Roadrunner kit in the LB7 computer, hooking up either RTOBDII or Efilive and then tweak away....

:)
 
Real time tuning for the obd one trucks is cheaper than the buying a tune , you can do it for about 400 dollars and be tuning your own truck. If you are interested. You get the program from Tuner cat and the definition files from Westers Garage, then buy the Moates Auto Prom burner and real time emulator. The Drip Speed has chips and holders buy a few to start with from him or get them at Moates tuning. If you like to do your own tuning I can get you started when you buy your own kit. It is not easy learn to tune your own but it is very rewarding.

I can tell you that other than KOJO most do the same variations of tunes for OBD 1 and OBD 2 from what I have seen. I spoken to Westers Garage quite a bit and wanted to thank Lyndon for the help in the OBD2 tune, have one out there running in a one ton dually as a test. Has had good results so far, guy does 45000 miles a year so I figured he is a good test subject. So far mileage is up towing and unloaded, power is smooth.

I am not getting into tuning for money, I am doing it to show that there are alternatives to what the conventional train of thought is. I need to Thank the Ferminator for starting me on that path and Rainstate for initial real time tuning. I now have proven to myself that tuning is the key to making any combination the most efficient.

Quoting someone "the turbo is just along for the ride" I have found that I now disagree from experience on how a lot of tunes are set up. It takes some innovative tuning tune get fuel mileage and horsepower. Thanks Ferminator. OH and by the way there is 126 mm of fuel potentially available from the DS4. That is all I am going to say on that. I am not an expert and the more parts I tweak I find more ways to customize the driving experience. I have found that OBD2 is way ahead of the OBD one and that I know very little when it comes to tuning. But I do know enough to make me somewhat informed, certainly not an expert.
 
Thanks for the update, Dennis. So, bottom line, what is the possibility of developing some tunes for the OBDII like a towing, economy, sport or max power tune dialed in for either stock, ATT or HX40WII turbos and optimum injector configurations for each?

For instance, on my '98 K2500 Burb running 3.42 gears, stock sized tires, and either Marine, SSDS Fuelmiser, or rebuilt standard injectors with higher pop pressures, with say an HX40WII CKO for more low rpm boost response, what would be the possibility of buying a program to attain optimum Interstate cruising MPG at 75-80 MPH and better overall efficiency in city driving by lowering shift points and converter lockup rpm as well as optimizing highway cruising?

With fuel prices the way they are, for those of us who don't tow 20K loads all the time or use our 6.5's as workhorses daily, just haul the kids on vacation or friends on football road trips to the other side of Big 10 Conference territory 1,200 miles away (Penn State, Rutgers or Maryland from Nebraska), I know speaking for me I'd love to have a tune and combo where I can get consistently 22-25 mpg highway and do that kind of round trip on three tanks of fuel instead of four.

My biggest problem is that all the hardware/software/coding is WAY above my pay grade, if you know what I mean, but I'm willing to pay for somebody else's expertise to attain the end results.
 
Bringing this back from the dead because I have RT tuning working for both OBDI and OBDII in-house. Currently the OBD-II stuff is a bit cost prohibitive because the PLCC32->DIP32 adapter alone is $120, plus the Ostrich 2.0 and proprietary software to handle the code encryption/scramble on the chip. It's not a direct write like the OBDI.

Still trying to figure out where to go with it since the market isn't great for it. I'm not using any of the existing hardware/software mentioned throughout this thread since it was all proprietary.
 
quadstar87 said:
Bringing this back from the dead because I have RT tuning working for both OBDI and OBDII in-house. Currently the OBD-II stuff is a bit cost prohibitive because the PLCC32->DIP32 adapter alone is $120, plus the Ostrich 2.0 and proprietary software to handle the code encryption/scramble on the chip. It's not a direct write like the OBDI.

Still trying to figure out where to go with it since the market isn't great for it. I'm not using any of the existing hardware/software mentioned throughout this thread since it was all proprietary.
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Please let us know how this all works out! I would be very interested in getting this tunnjng software in this for retuning my obd2 97 6.5 c3500 Crew Cab Dually. Had Heath Diesel tune it and it's needing modifications to the tune and they are not wanting to answer back. $513 worth and the tunes finicky. Smh.


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