Time to put an engine together

[hookedup50]

While you are changing mounts to ES, do the tranny mount as well. I got a vibration from the tranny mount after ES motor mounts installed. So much for saving a few dollars.
FT, who makes SS idler bracket?
N8, if you go Evans don't ever let the vehicle out of your care. My GF used my truck, heard a noise and took it to the mechanic? and thier solution was to contaminate my evans with prestone.

 

[WarWagon]

"I am seriously thinking about replacing the front end bushings with them."
I have the energy suspension bushing on the front of the 1993 and did then on my 1995 hot rod. Night and day difference and worth the cost for better handling on these boats. Tightens things up some. Don't forget the rag joint on top of the steering box that wears out and can give a loose feeling. You want the black ones as the red ones squeak more.

Used engines esp. from the military tend to need a ring set. The 2nd ring doesn't get loaded enough to break in properly on the two military 6.2's I purchased. New rings are simple to do while the engine is out and can be cheap for standard rings. As clean as my oil still is I highly recommend the gapless rings to keep the soot from these dirty engines out of the small amount of crankcase oil they have. After all heavy duty use requires a 2500 mile oil change per my owner's manual. UOA confirmed 3000 miles was too many with conventional rings towing!

Cooling is CRITICAL for these engines. Do not take them over 210 ECT EVER!!! The non-GM blocks may handle this better without cracking. Our body style has serious airflow problems over the radiator and this is why we do the upgraded 9 blade steel or duramax fans.

Turbo choice is a big one with lots to consider for your needs. I found the same power with the ATT at less boost than the HX40II. The HX40II feels like a midrange turbo with the GMx being too small and the ATT being the big turbo. The ATT once at enough RPM to spool pulls like a freight train to redline. The HX40II is starting to choke before redline and wants to blow off the WG. If the WG does blow off it's like hitting a brick wall when power cuts. Tighten the WG down and the ATT still pulls harder at redline engine RPM. Both turbo's had trouble out of the hole from a dead stop when it's 110 out, AC on and Fan locked in. This is why I experimented with the BD spool valve and am experimenting with the high stall converter. The risk with the converter is not enough load to spool the turbo. At the end of the day I have serious 18% grades to climb that make ANY engine cry uncle - link.

Here is some info on the HX40II and ATT on the same engine and dyno:
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/att-run-vs-hx40ii.38950/

With a bigger turbo than the GMx you let more heat out of the engine and cooling needs go down - link.

 

[FellowTraveler]

FT, who makes SS idler bracket?
.

If the following link violates forum rules please delete!

http://www.supersteerparts.com/products/pickup-suv-truck-parts/steering?page=1

 

[hookedup50]

Thanks FT, and if I helped you violate rules, sorry. I don't believe any supporting vendors sell suspension and rubber mount parts, but may be mistaken.

 

[n8in8or]

While the EVANS is pricey and say you do have a leak and catch it sooner than later water can be used in emergency then boiled off later and replace coolant lost I had confirmed this with tech support at EVANS.

If I may suggest. replace the heater core (s) hoses, thermostats water pump and radiator and dont worry about leaks if the diesel is sealed properly when assembled "attention to ARP studs bolts as they will leak if not sealed properly.

If you run a low pressure cap or a zero pressure cap like I do then there is no pressure stress on parts and hoses other than pump head pressure which drops off as coolant exits to radiator. High end silicone radiator and heater hoses will further reduce leak issues in the long run. Pay attention to any air gaps around radiator and the radiator support and seal any gaps yes under the upper radiator cover too.

That cover (some call a skid plate) between the front chassis rails and between the bumper and lower radiator support is to prevent air stalling through the radiator at speed.

Remember the EVANS ELIMINATES CAVITATION which is real important on diesel and high performance engines.

Thanks for the info on the Evans....being able to add water and boil it off later is very helpful info. I have new heater core and Delco thermostats, and with the engine out I would do hoses and water pump, so that just leaves the radiator to consider. I will definitely leave that cover down below in place.

Energy suspension diesel/454 specific motor mounts are the best option for longevity as are ES control arm bushings I've done this and never looked back.

Another item is SS idler bracket which is massive and uses tapered wheel bearings as opposed to bronze in OEM bracket it's the last idler bracket you'll ever buy.

14 bolt ff w/6 lug axles is a great match for the vehicle however the 14 bolt semi floater will suffice too.

"I am seriously thinking about replacing the front end bushings with them."
I have the energy suspension bushing on the front of the 1993 and did then on my 1995 hot rod. Night and day difference and worth the cost for better handling on these boats. Tightens things up some. Don't forget the rag joint on top of the steering box that wears out and can give a loose feeling. You want the black ones as the red ones squeak more.

Thanks for mentioning the ES control bushings and heavy duty idler bracket NOW....in October I replaced all bushings, ball joints and steering parts in the front end with Moog Problem Solver parts thinking I was doing the best I could do. Where were you guys 2 months ago??? Ha. If I ever need to do a replacement I will definitely keep this stuff in mind.

I don't think I'll go 14bolt ff, but the sf should be fine for my needs.

Used engines esp. from the military tend to need a ring set. The 2nd ring doesn't get loaded enough to break in properly on the two military 6.2's I purchased. New rings are simple to do while the engine is out and can be cheap for standard rings. As clean as my oil still is I highly recommend the gapless rings to keep the soot from these dirty engines out of the small amount of crankcase oil they have. After all heavy duty use requires a 2500 mile oil change per my owner's manual. UOA confirmed 3000 miles was too many with conventional rings towing!

Thank you for more confirmation on the gapless rings....hearing actual documentation on the benefits is extremely helpful.

 

[Burning oil]

Nate,
Hi just sent you a reply to email.

One thing I wanted to post here from that email is:

"BTW my Teds long block was on the verge of damaging the crank shaft. Lucky I took it apart. It had deep scoring beginning to happen. Luckily the bearings took most of it and I got away with only needing the crank polished."

 

[n8in8or]

Turbo choice is a big one with lots to consider for your needs. I found the same power with the ATT at less boost than the HX40II. The HX40II feels like a midrange turbo with the GMx being too small and the ATT being the big turbo. The ATT once at enough RPM to spool pulls like a freight train to redline. The HX40II is starting to choke before redline and wants to blow off the WG. If the WG does blow off it's like hitting a brick wall when power cuts. Tighten the WG down and the ATT still pulls harder at redline engine RPM. Both turbo's had trouble out of the hole from a dead stop when it's 110 out, AC on and Fan locked in. This is why I experimented with the BD spool valve and am experimenting with the high stall converter. The risk with the converter is not enough load to spool the turbo. At the end of the day I have serious 18% grades to climb that make ANY engine cry uncle - link.

Here is some info on the HX40II and ATT on the same engine and dyno:
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/att-run-vs-hx40ii.38950/

WW, I read this thread before and it was helpful information. I will re-read again since it's been a couple months.

I'm hesitant to talk turbos too much in this thread as it is a subject that people are very passionate about and discussions I have seen usually seem to go down a turbo-bashing path, so I'm still trying to read other peoples' experiences and weed through the data and make a decision.

"BTW my Teds long block was on the verge of damaging the crank shaft. Lucky I took it apart. It had deep scoring beginning to happen. Luckily the bearings took most of it and I got away with only needing the crank polished."

Leroy, I saw your email and I appreciate that info...that is good to read. If I do end up going the Ted's route I will be sure to inspect it thoroughly before sticking it in the truck....no need putting it in just to take it back out again!

 

[n8in8or]

While you are changing mounts to ES, do the tranny mount as well. I got a vibration from the tranny mount after ES motor mounts installed. So much for saving a few dollars.
FT, who makes SS idler bracket?
N8, if you go Evans don't ever let the vehicle out of your care. My GF used my truck, heard a noise and took it to the mechanic? and thier solution was to contaminate my evans with prestone.

Hookedup, sorry...I missed your message. That's a good point regarding the coolant. I'm pretty protective of the truck, but flukes happen. If I go waterless I'd probably be smart to put labels all over the overflow bottle "DO NOT REMOVE CAP UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH".

 

[n8in8or]

Ok, I got a couple more pics of the engine I found and I'm pretty sure it's not an Optimizer.....and it's not a P400....but what the heck is it? In the attached pics, the first 2 are ones that he sent me of the valley of the engine. I don't see a Navistar diamond in the valley, but from the pics it's obviously new. I've seen another one like this on that auction site, so I'm just wondering what the heck these are. In fact, here's one that Ted's is selling as new from AMG. http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-5-Diesel-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item54149991a7&vxp=mtr

So now I'm wondering, is it an Optimizer?? Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[n8in8or]

Oops, some of those last pics are just thumbnails....let's see if these are better.

 

[WarWagon]

Photo's are all but useless as they got slaughtered on the upload somehow. Center valley photo with entire valley shown. Back of heads on block for casting numbers.

This could be a China knock off block.

 

[WarWagon]

I'm hesitant to talk turbos too much in this thread as it is a subject that people are very passionate about and discussions I have seen usually seem to go down a turbo-bashing path, so I'm still trying to read other peoples' experiences and weed through the data and make a decision.
!

We could use a little turbo drama to liven things up around here. Seriously most of the information is out there including a couple of other turbo's like Peninsular Engines T6500751 Turbo.

From the video in the other thread your cracked heads are likely the problem being cracked through to coolant. You could probably get away with just replacing them. The video is classic coolant from the cloud dissipating - oil doesn't. On the other hand there is no kill like overkill and and new engine will solve the problem. Hard to tell if you also cracked a cylinder that is causing the white smoke. You could pull the crossover off and water pump belt and look for bubbles in the coolant crossover. The side that bubbles has the problem.

 

[n8in8or]

Photo's are all but useless as they got slaughtered on the upload somehow. Center valley photo with entire valley shown. Back of heads on block for casting numbers.

This could be a China knock off block.

Yeah, not the best pics, and I had trouble getting more pics from the guy, but from what he has given me so far it is the same as the engine that is for sale in that link - and that one has good pictures of everything. No Navistar diamond, but clearly new and Ted's says it's from GEP...I'm just not sure what to think. My gut is that it's probably ok, but who knows for sure, so I'd be better off getting something that has a diamond on it.

From the video in the other thread your cracked heads are likely the problem being cracked through to coolant. You could probably get away with just replacing them. The video is classic coolant from the cloud dissipating - oil doesn't. On the other hand there is no kill like overkill and and new engine will solve the problem. Hard to tell if you also cracked a cylinder that is causing the white smoke. You could pull the crossover off and water pump belt and look for bubbles in the coolant crossover. The side that bubbles has the problem.

That video is a bit misleading. The thing I was trying to show was that it doesn't smoke at start up, but does after it starts to warm. I've had it running in the garage for a while and it's definitely an oil smoke haze that lingers and it smells of burning oil as well. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some coolant mixed in there as well, but it's predominantly oil smoke that I am seeing. I like your idea of looking for bubbles, and I will keep that in the back of my mind for any future troubleshooting. For this engine, I've already written it off in my mind and it's the overkill approach that I'm going to take to fix my problems.

 

[JayTheCPA]

My read of the photo spread is that the seller knows what you want and is angling to make you think you are seeing what you want. Simply put, if the seller wants you to buy this engine, you must get the photo shots you expect; otherwise, wish him good luck in selling it.

 

[n8in8or]

Yeah, I was careful to tell him where to show me, but not what to show me so he didn't just find pics on the interwebs to show me. He tried to tell me that 506 identified that the engine was made in 2014. I politely disagreed with him.

 

[Burning oil]

Gut tells me Chinese or maybe a GM unit?
Heres a pic of my AMG 506 notice the "dot matrix" look not solid line and numberes.

 

[n8in8or]

That's what I'm thinking too Leroy.

 

[n8in8or]

I might be going a slightly different direction....at least for a year or two. When planning a build, the prices are sure escalating. I've decided to not dip into credit any further and try to build an engine with tax money instead. That being said....this past weekend I picked up a really cheap engine. It was advertised as a 6.5 long block that was removed because it was missing when running. It was $50. I figured that even if it was cracked all over, I could keep the injectors and scrap the block and heads and be ahead so I bought it.

I barely looked at it when I picked it up, because I didn't care what it was for the price, but felt kind of foolish because once I got it on the stand at home I found that it's a 6.2, not a 6.5. It's a 1989 660 block. I've torn it completely down and the block has no visible cracks and the bores are beautiful. The heads don't even have cracks between the valves! They're 567 heads with 3 square precups.

At first I was going to sell the short block and keep the heads as spares, but I'm starting to consider building this engine as an engine to use until I can properly afford an Optimizer (or maybe a P400 ).

My thought is that I could put this together on the cheap and use it for a year or two and then put what I really want in the truck. In the meantime I guess I'd run the boost a bit lower than I really want in an effort to keep it alive.

Is this a bad plan? I was thinking that I would install a Fluidamper to try to help it live. I wouldn't mind doing a Scat crank, but since it's a 2 piece seal block, I'm not sure I want to bother with having a crank machined. What do you guys think about a main girdle? I would definitely be swapping the precups to diamonds. I was also thinking that I'd probably switch to Evans coolant too, to keep the cooling system pressure down and to best remove heat.

Remember I'll be towing a 6000 pound flying brick camper in the summers, so it's not going to have a super easy life, but I also know that is nothing compared to what some of you guys put your engines through.

Any thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated!

 

[n8in8or]

 

[n8in8or]

Oh I forgot to post that I found the reason for the miss.....the head gasket was blown between cylinders 5 and 7. It was blown bigtime. So I'll need to check the flatness of the deck and head.