• Welcome to The Truck Stop! We see you haven't REGISTERED yet.

    Your truck knowledge is missing!
    • Registration is FREE , all we need is your birthday and email. (We don't share ANY data with ANYONE)
    • We have tons of knowledge here for your diesel truck!
    • Post your own topics and reply to existing threads to help others out!
    • NO ADS! The site is fully functional and ad free!
    CLICK HERE TO REGISTER!

    Problems registering? Click here to contact us!

    Already registered, but need a PASSWORD RESET? CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD!

Stud, Girdle, or Nothing?

Thanks Tim, I would have to agree with your ideal set-up. If I can have my cake and eat it too, I do plan on heavy hauling w/ my HD. With my back ground in 18 wheelers (20 yrs now) high HP rules the road, unless you use a 18 spd tranny, in which case, you can get by with a lower HP, but thats another story...
 
Turbine Doc said:
Yup did cement the land racer, but most of the hd daily drivers in their fleet aren't cemented
Click to expand...

I was wondering if he did that on his mail trucks or not, the article I thought made it sound like he did cement the mail trucks, but I likely misinterpreted, or the news papers and mags. often get thier facts wrong
 
filled blocks, splayed mains and all that stuff

We build engines only for our own use. We fill the coolant passages of every engine we build and have done so for many years. These are filled to a depth, which still allows room between the concrete and the under-deck, so as to allow distribution of coolant from the upper block into the heads. The Suburban we use to tow the land speed truck is one of many done this way. We use our Extra H-D cooling system upgrade on every one of our trucks and Subs. For those unfamiliar with it, the 750 mile trip from our facilities to the salt flats is mountains all the way and we never see more than 1 notch below the 210* on the gauge.
We do not use splayed mains or stud girdles. We do use 12mm studs in all 10 main cap locations. We used the Scat crank in our racer and in quite a few other of our rigs, including the Suburban we tow with. We use these because Scat's Bob Jones told us they were better and we always believe what Bob tells us. We run our engines at or even slightly above the factory 21.3:1 cr. We use studs to hold heads onto every engine we do, Head bolts cannot provide a quality distribution of the clamping force and I dont trust them. For standard duty type use, we use Fel-Pro gaskets. The racer measures 21.9:1 and made its salt flat runs with the same Fel-Pro's, however, it will be outfitted with custom Cometic MLS jobs for the next outting. I think that the Fel-Pro gaskets compress unevenly due to the fire-ring design and distort the head/block. The Cometics will be better in that regard. Our engines all use regular Mahle replacement pistons that are treated to a tri-coat process by Performance Coatings in Auburn WA. Our pistons are fitted to the filled block at .0055-.0058" clearance, which has been working out very well.
I hope this stuff is interesting to you. Theres more if you want it.
Bill
 
Thanks for the great info, Bill. Your information is always appreciated here. Would you consider the block fill a "half fill"?
 
Hey 6265Racer Bill: Thanks for the info, Question- What block filler do you use for long term use in a street truck that wont break down or send sand particles through the cooling system? Thanks, Dave
 
Last edited:
Another question for Bill:

Was the .0055-.0058" piston clearance for the race motor only? If so what do you use for a street truck piston clearance? Thanks, Dave
 
Thank you all for the kind words. We are pleased that you share our enthusiasm for this form of racing. Certainly, we were thrilled with our 6.5's 153 mph speed in Sept, however we do suffer some angst in the knowledge that we could and should have run up at around 157. We thought there would be at least one more pass for us that day and it was planned that on it, we would push out to higher rpm in each gear, so to get up to speed sooner. On this the 5th run, I was still getting used to the salt and had yet to exercise the truck to its maximum output.
To help explain; the throttle was only very gently and gradually applied as I rolled out and the 1>2 gear change was made at a low 3000---this to help avoid wheel spin. In 2nd, with the throttle being steadily advanced, the 2>3 gear change was made at 3300. By about 100 mph in 3rd, the throttle was finally on the mat. On this run, I held 3rd to 4400rpm and 130 mph---higher rpm and speed than on earlier runs. The important thing here is the shift recovery rpm. When the nose is pushing against that aero-drag at 130, we need to have the rpm in 4th gear (recovery rpm) be as high as possible, so that the engine can continue to accelerate the truck against that load .
At 153, the racer was a bit twitchy in the rear, telling us that we will have to add some ballast in order to restore a more stable feel at that and higher speed. At this time, we are pleased with its performance and plan no changes in our package for 09.
We use Hard Bloc filler in most, but have used our own mix of grout as well as the Moroso block filler. In any case, we have learned that a strict adherence to the recommendation of the manufacturer is critical to achieving a good fill.
As regards piston to wall clearance we use in the racer; the combination of the filled block, coated Mahle pistons and the way it is used, dictate the .0055--.0058" we set up with. Our post event disassembly / inspection of the engine has revealed that cyl walls, pistons, rings and etc are perfectly healthy. Absolutely no undesirable conditions or patterns were found, which substantiates our various choices for this application. Again, the clearances we use are in consideration of our filled block and coated Mahle pistons.
The only difference between the racer's engine and that of the Suburban we use to tow it is that, the piston to wall clearance in Sub's engine is set a bit tighter at .005-.0053. However, based on what we are learning, we would not hesitate to use the greater, race engine clearance in the next highway towing engine.
We enjoy sharing info about our racer and will provide additional material if you like. By the way, we encourage you to bring your 6.5 to the party. You will find few if any other autosports as rewarding as this one.

Bill
 
Thanks for answering those Bill. So I will ask some more please :D

How have the SCAT cranks been for you as far as balance when you get them? Are they too far off and need balancing or would they be ok for a street truck overhaul with weight matched pistons and rods?

Do you ever use the Locknstitch Full Torque crack repair inserts on main bearing outer bolt holes? What do you think about 6.5 blocks with these main cracks?
Would they be OK with inserts, arp studs and block filler?

I have 2 more 6.5s to pull and tear down, hoping one of them will be a crack free block. The 1995 141 block in my garage has a couple main cracks.
Thanks for sharing your 65 experience with us on the site. Dave
 
Last edited:
6265 racer said:
We build engines only for our own use. We fill the coolant passages of every engine we build and have done so for many years. These are filled to a depth, which still allows room between the concrete and the under-deck, so as to allow distribution of coolant from the upper block into the heads. The Suburban we use to tow the land speed truck is one of many done this way. We use our Extra H-D cooling system upgrade on every one of our trucks and Subs. For those unfamiliar with it, the 750 mile trip from our facilities to the salt flats is mountains all the way and we never see more than 1 notch below the 210* on the gauge.
We do not use splayed mains or stud girdles. We do use 12mm studs in all 10 main cap locations. We used the Scat crank in our racer and in quite a few other of our rigs, including the Suburban we tow with. We use these because Scat's Bob Jones told us they were better and we always believe what Bob tells us. We run our engines at or even slightly above the factory 21.3:1 cr. We use studs to hold heads onto every engine we do, Head bolts cannot provide a quality distribution of the clamping force and I dont trust them. For standard duty type use, we use Fel-Pro gaskets. The racer measures 21.9:1 and made its salt flat runs with the same Fel-Pro's, however, it will be outfitted with custom Cometic MLS jobs for the next outting. I think that the Fel-Pro gaskets compress unevenly due to the fire-ring design and distort the head/block. The Cometics will be better in that regard. Our engines all use regular Mahle replacement pistons that are treated to a tri-coat process by Performance Coatings in Auburn WA. Our pistons are fitted to the filled block at .0055-.0058" clearance, which has been working out very well.
I hope this stuff is interesting to you. Theres more if you want it.
Bill
Click to expand...

Where do you get the studs? I just e-mailed a custom order form to ARP last night, but off-the-shelf parts would certainly be nice. Does the ARP 6.2 head stud kit 130-4062 fit all 6.5's (including the GEP ones)? What about main studs in the GEP blocks?

I suppose I'll have some ARP part numbers in a few days to share, but if you've already got them, and they'll fit the 2003 castings, care to share?

I've looked on heathdiesel.com without success. Do you sell the parts?
 
6265 racer said:
Thank you all for the kind words. We are pleased that you share our enthusiasm for this form of racing. Certainly, we were thrilled with our 6.5's 153 mph speed in Sept, however we do suffer some angst in the knowledge that we could and should have run up at around 157. We thought there would be at least one more pass for us that day and it was planned that on it, we would push out to higher rpm in each gear, so to get up to speed sooner. On this the 5th run, I was still getting used to the salt and had yet to exercise the truck to its maximum output.
To help explain; the throttle was only very gently and gradually applied as I rolled out and the 1>2 gear change was made at a low 3000---this to help avoid wheel spin. In 2nd, with the throttle being steadily advanced, the 2>3 gear change was made at 3300. By about 100 mph in 3rd, the throttle was finally on the mat. On this run, I held 3rd to 4400rpm and 130 mph---higher rpm and speed than on earlier runs. The important thing here is the shift recovery rpm. When the nose is pushing against that aero-drag at 130, we need to have the rpm in 4th gear (recovery rpm) be as high as possible, so that the engine can continue to accelerate the truck against that load .
At 153, the racer was a bit twitchy in the rear, telling us that we will have to add some ballast in order to restore a more stable feel at that and higher speed. At this time, we are pleased with its performance and plan no changes in our package for 09.
We use Hard Bloc filler in most, but have used our own mix of grout as well as the Moroso block filler. In any case, we have learned that a strict adherence to the recommendation of the manufacturer is critical to achieving a good fill.
As regards piston to wall clearance we use in the racer; the combination of the filled block, coated Mahle pistons and the way it is used, dictate the .0055--.0058" we set up with. Our post event disassembly / inspection of the engine has revealed that cyl walls, pistons, rings and etc are perfectly healthy. Absolutely no undesirable conditions or patterns were found, which substantiates our various choices for this application. Again, the clearances we use are in consideration of our filled block and coated Mahle pistons.
The only difference between the racer's engine and that of the Suburban we use to tow it is that, the piston to wall clearance in Sub's engine is set a bit tighter at .005-.0053. However, based on what we are learning, we would not hesitate to use the greater, race engine clearance in the next highway towing engine.
We enjoy sharing info about our racer and will provide additional material if you like. By the way, we encourage you to bring your 6.5 to the party. You will find few if any other autosports as rewarding as this one.

Bill
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing (as you always have). IMHO, this is why you have developed such a loyal following.:thumbsup:

Regards,
 
X2 it is very nice of you to share what u have found and been doing with the 6.5 community. I know i enjoy reading about what you are doing.
 
I would use a stud kit and forget the girdle.

The blocks crack for several reasons. The spreading action of the outer threads and the terrific dynamic stresses at this point are the main reasons.

The fluid damper is a good Bang for the $$$$$$$$

I have a 94 599 Block with a 264K on it now. Yanked it and rebuilt it at 237K NO cracks.

Ya just never know what you will find.

IMHO a High mile block thats not cracked will live forever, Hmmmm well almost :D

Best

MGW
 
6265 racer said:
We enjoy sharing info about our racer and will provide additional material if you like. By the way, we encourage you to bring your 6.5 to the party. You will find few if any other autosports as rewarding as this one.

Bill
Click to expand...

Where is the party at? I am looking to get some feedback on my 6.5 :smile5:
 
I missed a couple of questions---sorry. We use the regular 6.2--6.5 ARP head stud kit part number #130-4062. The main studs we use are unique to this application and we are working with ARP to make this a Heath part or at least a regular ARP offering. We prefer the older blocks with 12mm studs in all 10 locations and this is what this set will fit. The newer block with its smaller 10mm holes on the outer of the center 3 will need a different combo of inner and outer. For what it is worth, we think it better to stick with the factory fasteners on these newer blocks than it is to do studs in the outer of the 3 center mains. Better would be studs everywhere----but never studs on those outer locations of the center 3 mains.
Scat's Bob Jones says the Scat 6.5 crank is a factory balance set up, so, just like the factory did it, you can throw it in without doing anything. We like to balance everything.

As for the 1/2 fill on the block--if I understand the question; certainly, there should be some benefit, but we think it is best to do the whole thing, leaving only enough room (.70") for coolant distribution between the concrete and the under-side of the deck. We have at least one truck that is filled higher than this, but that one was a lot of work getting the water pump ports 'ported' to direct the coolant flow into the distribution section. If you are hanging onto some concern about overheat----don't. We have never seen a negative condition resulting from a full-fill. In our regular-use, towing applications, we always install our Extra H-D Cooling upgrade on these. The reason we do the extra piston to wall clearance is this; always, the alum piston will 'grow' at a greater rate than the iron cylinder it is buddies with, this, even though the piston is built with steel expansion control components which are there to limit its change in size across the temp scale. The goal is an 'ideal' clearance at normal, operating temp.
When we rock the block, we change the rate of expansion--we reduce the change. We cause the cylinder bore to change much less than it will if water-cooled, so we have to establish the warmed up piston to wall clearance in the cold clearance---hense the .0055" vs Mahle recommended. 042". The rocked block provides a cooler and more stable cylinder for the piston---they are both much happier this way.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top