Revenge of Bambi

[jmiller]

The continuation of Deer strike catches up with me Plenty O Questions!


So I started checking rod clearances.
Rod, 1, 2, 5 are 0.002 ~ 0.0025.
Rod 6 was 0.003 0.0035, checked with a new std bearing @ 0.0025
Rod 7 was 0.0035, pulled the upper to check with a std and found this:


The bearing was starting to delaminate.

Back to finish the inspection.

 

[WarWagon]

:sick:

 

[jmiller]

After 10,000 miles since the truck ran out of oil the assessment of the rod bearings is done.

Each of the upper halves had some level of damage in a bright spot or actual separation of the the top level. Rod 7, pictured above, was delaminated the worst. Rod 4 had a separation spot of 1/4", the material was still floating on the journal.

Most every bearing clearance for undamaged ones was 0.002 to 0.0025. Checking the damaged ones with a new standard bearing had a clearance of 0.002.

A set of std rod bearings with one or two undersized should fix it up.

Next question is the main's. The manual indicates the 6.5 main bolts (12mm's) are TTY (torque to Yield). Since my bottom end is actually a 6.2, they appear to be regular high strength bolts. The main bolts have '11.9' embossed on them.

So I need to figure out whether to roll the dice or inspect the mains.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I'd inspect the mains while your in there. you should be able to slide the top 1/2 around with another bearing shell. (obviously needs to be the same bearing)

 

[Will L.]

Funny title!
The bearing wear is indicitive of only half the numbers in your report. Do you have a copy of the report from before this one? Seeing only that much bearing wear/damage only shows more evidence of cam bearing issues. Ferm replied in your other post to pull the engine, and this should be your proof of it.

The bearing wear you have there is not enough to drop your oil pressure that far. You either have MAJOR main bearing wear, if that is the oil pressure drop, and a mystery source for the iron like a spun main bearing (unlikely because you are not showing enough tin) or you spun a cam bearing. Cam bearing is your most likely source of dropped oil pressure in these engines. Also your metals match up to it because the minor gaulding caused by a cam bearing pulls much smaller amounts of the block away than a main explaining the iron.

I know it sucks to pull the engine out and all the way down. But it sucks more to do a lower inframe, still have low pressure then seize a cam and have new bearings in a boat anchor of iron. I hope for you I am wrong, but out of making the call to yank an engine probably 500 times I have not been wrong yet. If I am wrong and you get 10,000 more out of it please let me know and let us all see the other oil reports so we can all learn more from it. Thanks, good luck.

 

[WarWagon]

I am running the same engine we hit the Elk with. It also split the oil cooler and painted the trailer we were pulling diesel oil black. It has 40K on it since then and now lower oil pressure than I would like. But, I have seen the rod bearings since it hit the Elk and they were fine when I put in the new slugs and rings.

I have had good oil pressure with copper showing in all the bearings - rod and main. I pulled the engine due to a bad oil leak at the front seal and massive blowby. I also had this rebuilt 6.2 sitting around.

So I would agree with the above to pull the engine and check everything - bearings, oil gallery plugs, pump, cracks, etc.

 

[jmiller]

The oil analysis report is the initial report

The bearing damage appears to be more of a heat related stress that lead to separation and not something that would necessarily show in an analysis. The #7 upper bearing surface actually peeled and extruded out of the bearing. This explains the chips of aluminum found in the oil pickup. It most likely explains the sudden drop of 5 to 10 psi of oil pressure across the operating temperature range. The number of aluminum slivers seen in the pickup and oil pan was maybe three.


A representative of the other rod bearings is here:


The separation spot found in #4 was isolated to the center of the upper bearing. Area around the spot in the upper bearing looked very similar to the picture above. The peeled material was still in the hole created and on the crank journal when I removed the bearing.

On what to do?
Is pulling the motor the best thing to do, sure.

Is the truck worth the expense that goes with pulling it and checking more than just an in frame?

To me that answer is No.

5 yrs of good hard use.
Plus add in the cost of an $8K of motor, three years ago, in a 15 year old truck that does not carry the engine premium of the newer diesels.

Now add in the pulling the motor and breaking it down is probably at least another $2k. head gaskets, machine work, rings, bearings, etc.

This in frame will be $250, another $100 if I mess with the mains and $50 bucks is for the fresh Rotella.
​

I have enough confidence in the condition of the crank rod journal condition to put rod bearings in and go.

The only open question is the mains.
I'm leery of disturbing the rear main because the rear seal does not leak. And getting a split seal to not leak is a real bear if things are not perfectly clean. Which is hard to do in frame.

When the oil cooler broke, not realizing the oil was pumping out, the truck idled for probably 20 to 30 seconds before I discovered the oil and shut it down. Most of that time, some oil was still getting to the engine based on the size of the oil spot on the road.

Once I bypassed the cooler and started the engine, my oil pressure was only down maybe 10 psi.
This was the third, and most serious oil cooler failures since installing this engine. Wore a hole in the stock aluminum line, joint failure of the stock cooler after installing braided hoses, then the deer breakage.

Honestly, if there is two more years in this truck. I'll be happy.

 

[Will L.]

Aluminum? I thought you found pieces of iron in the oil pan, That coupled with elevated iron in the oil sample would indicate Gaulding.

Paying $2000 to R&R the engine plus tear down & assembly is a lot- I do all work myself to save money.

The only added expense in parts is the camshaft bearings, Timing cover gasket kit, And one extra tube of the right stuff. All the other parts you would be buying for the in frame anyways.

There is no reason to remove the heads or intake manifold. No machine work is necessary. No rings are needed.
It does take two people to remove the crankshaft with the rods and pistons still in place In the cylinders. Please heat shrink over the rod bolts so they don't scratch the crankshaft you don't have to heat it up just place on them While rotating the crankshaft to get the rods all off.

Your truck your money your call. This is just my two cents, And after inflation is worth half of that. Best of luck.

 

[WarWagon]

You can get a take out 6.2 dropped in for under $2grand. I would do rings on any engine pulled down to stop blowby.

I don't think it is that hard to pull the engine and work on it on a stand. I highly recommend you pull it and check it out. If it gets too expensive - get another 6.2 take out and re-ring it with your good heads.

My truck is salvage title, 7 different colors, and dented up pretty good. No major rust - just minor surface rust on the cab where most of the paint is gone. I own it outright and it runs good enough that I really don't need the 2005. So the truck is worthless to others, but, to me it is a sleeper that other people don't mess with or park next to. All that and I pulled the engine couple years ago with FOD damage and gave it different heads, gapless rings, and new slugs.

 

[Drago]

would a brush guard or bull guard been effective or would Bambi end up in the cab with you?

 

[jmiller]

would a brush guard or bull guard been effective or would Bambi end up in the cab with you?

It would have prevented today's BS!

I'd still have a bashed in door, but no engine damage.

Oh well

 

[btfarm]

I've done mains one at a time in a sbc in frame without pulling the crank but that did not include the rear main. That one I just checked the bottom 1/2 and decided I was good with replacing the others.

 

[jmiller]

Update

Here's an update on where I went.

Checked the Rod's, a set of new Std bearings and two 0.001" undersized got all the oil clearances to < 0.001 to > 0.002 (most about 0.0017 or so)
Only two physically damaged bearings, #7 & #4.

I did not inspect mains, or open the oil pump. I figured an oil pan rear seal and some more rtv was pretty cheap.


Put the pan on, poured in oil, primed the system with a drill. The OPS came apart when I pulled the connector during the pump priming and had to be replaced.

Then I started it up.

Oil pressure didn't change. Cold pressure is still at 60 to 65, hot idle is >20 to 25 psi. :mad2:


Back to the metal found in the pan.

I found one or two very small nuggets of cast iron, and several flakes of what appears to be aluminum from the #7 rod.
When installing the rod bearings, I searched for signs of any scraping marks on the rods, NONE found.
The amount of large aluminum flake was consistent with the amount missing from #7.


Now, the pressure drop was sudden. It was started it one evening after stopping for dinner and the pressure was lower by 15 psi.

Now that #7 rod, with side channels for oil relief is back to spec, it is obvious this rod has been damaged for a long time. Possible from the initial accident. Because making that repair made no impact to the oil pressure.

I did not find enough visible metal pieces to suspect more than the damaged rod bearing. The oil sample only showed slightly elevated iron.


Stupid or stubborn, I have not pulled the motor. The wife does not want any more money poured into the truck. :WTF:

 

[WarWagon]

Get a divorce. You will be happier with the truck. :hihi: Already told my woman what the answer would be if she ever asked that question.

You have half the engine rebuilt now. Maybe you can do the cam with the block still in the truck? I still would pull it.

 

[jmiller]

On the subject of the noise:

[video=youtube_share;ODygLecNyNs]http://youtu.be/ODygLecNyNs[/video]

Thoughts, or am I sensitive with the oil pressure drop?

 

[Will L.]

If a sudden loss in oil pressure occurs in the lower end, main bearings create general drag during crank speed or a
Crank knock is detected. If it in the rods, a Rod knock is heard. Sounds more to one side or the other is usually an upper end noise unless it is a wrist pin, but wont effect pressure. Rod/wrist pin that can be determined by killing that cylinder fuel supply during diagnosis. All rare for these circumstances. Wish I could here that in person.

Most oil pressure drops occur in the cam area. This is because the oil pump is designed to create flow, and the pressure develops at the point of restriction. Most of the restriction is in the cam / lifter area. That is why the oil pressure is read here. The pressure variance is more note able here. If it were the lower end the ops would be there on all engines. Sudden drops in pressure not resulting in major, leave you on the side of the road stories, are almost always cam or cambearings. The high volume oil pump was put in for the oil squirters look at the pressure difference and it has 8 holes in in the main journals any 1 of which is way bigger than all The main and rod clearances combined.

If you have clearances on your rods that are on the loose side you could run a quart of thicker oil with each oil change and get away with it longer.

The cast iron is from a spinning cam bearing shaving the block. Usually not a lot of material and not detectable until bearings come out. Some engines have let go in days, some in 20,000+ miles. My fingers are crossed for you.

Take the wife shopping for a new duramax explaining the similar fuel efficency and use. Agree on they too high payments and figure out the option of a few months worth of payments into fixing ol faithful. My option to my wife was sell the hummer, buy a gasser pick up And a duece and a half. She figures the hummer ain't all that bad now for some reason.:thumbsup:

 

[jmiller]

Pulling the motor

I inspected the relief valve, it was in the proper place, moved freely and the spring was not broken.

I pried open the oil filter and found some bearing flakes, but not a lot.


I'm going to pull the motor. I think that a friend has a cam bearing installer.

A visual of the cam bearings appear to look ok. The inner bearings are in place and thickness looks good from each side. Can't see the rear or front bearing.

I did find visible wear on the oil pump drive gear on the cam! This would explain some of the iron in the oil sample.

Has anyone tried to remove the cam without pulling the heads?

I'm thinking that if the engine is inverted and the push rods are removed, rotating the cam would push the lifters into the retainers and allow for the cam removal. But don't I don't know if I can pull and install the bearings with the lifters installed.

I'll delay looking at the mains until the block is out.

 

[Will L.]

I removed my rocker arm shafts, pushrods, and lifters. Pulled the cam and did all the bearings. Your plan sounds good. I never removed the heads. The damage to the cam bearings and block was not visible until bearings were removed.

The gear is a possibility, but what allowed the tolerance to cause the damage would be the question. #5 cam bearing would be my guess. Unless just manufactured wrong. Check for run out in the oil pump drive and the mating area.

 

[WarWagon]

Oil pump has eaten a lot of debris by the looks of things. It should be inspected/replaced.

 

[jmiller]

I think most of the drive gear wear is from the high pump pressure I've seen during cold starts. It has to be putting a lot of pressure on the gear.

I didn't notice wear any on the driven gear when I pulled it earlier, but didn't really have any reason to look at it.

I'll look at the pump, might just replace for insurance anyway.

The hardest part is pulling the engine. I left my hoist at the farm, 2 1/2 hours south. I figured that my dad needed it a little more than I was expecting to need it.