Question on injector pop-pressure

[Rockabillyrat]

Here is a great write up on 2 stroke oil in ULSD. In conclusion its doesn't do enough to make a difference. Your better off running a true diesel additive instead

Part 1
Part 2

AG Db2s use 3000psi injectors. A DB2 has no problem handling pop pressure in that range. BUT if the H&R is worn it can cause hot start issues. On a new pump or one with a reman H&R. You should have zero issues with pop pressures above 2500psi. If your using and older pump especially an early DB2 with the old style H&R then you might have issues. A few guys are running 2800psi on NEW DS4s with zero isses.

 

[Will L.]

100% agree not in common rail, and there are better additives for our old system.
And I will never have the pump and injector knowledge Rockabillyrat has. I am anxious for having him build my next db2.

but we disagree on a couple things like this and the precup port size/function.

There’s a few things to note in the article about the two-stroke. Or other oils as lubricant.

First thing is he says everyone diesels from the 1980s can leave the room. He references it again later on in the article. Then later he references more problems with two-stroke on all of these common rail has. He is Dead to rights- don’t add lube to fuels in a common rail. Don’t add it in anything with dpf.

He says at one point there is only one paper found anywhere testing 2stroke and HE summerizes it for you instead of showing where to find it yourself by giving reference like you have been taught since the 5th grade is required on any report you did. But HE says that THEY said it basically doesn’t help. Then later he mentioned a second report. Wait, what? But you just said only one... Confucius says “I’m confused”. You just referred to a second....

None of the basic testing done all over the place like the one done that some folks here contributed to. Where it showed the difference is positive, and even in that test the same results were found that is universally accepted by every diesel producer except this guy about biofuel- 5% not the 2 or 3% HE mentioned. But that does come to another point. Using bio fuel helping lubricant. Which bio fuel, fats extracted how, what binding agent, what base stock? These are all HUGE! When I was at unical 76 here in Vegas, Rebel Oil Company tried a peanut oil blend stock. They sold that fuel to among a couple others the CAT (Citizens Area Transit) bus system. Basically the “county busses” for entire southern nv area. Look up Clark County if you wanna see square mileage it covered. Busses in the triple digit count. EVERY SINGLE BUS got a brand new engine from you the federal tax payer. It was a fed funded research program and that peanut oil destroyed them by the day. Diesel mechanics in the valley made a killing for a couple months because everyone was getting OT at prevailing wage pay scale swapping engines, fuel tanks, fuel lines.
So don’t go thinking bio fuel is bio fuel. People see great lubricity results from biofuel and think like a 5 year old child - all cars are the same. No Johnny, a 1985 Yugo doesn’t last as long as a 1985 Mercedes diesel engine. Doesn’t last 1/5 as long.
So you guys hear me RAGE about my absolute hatred of methanol/ethanol in automotive fuel. Listen, I love meth drag cars. Put one down the track more than once. But it has no damn business on the street where long term reliability counts- for gas or diesel.
How good is it? At that Rebel Oil/ 76 supplier that did over half the fuel gas and diesel for southern Nv southern Ut northern Az- anyone in management was given only 1 warning and anyone below management was immediately fired for putting mid or high grade fuel into a company vehicle. The company has been sold now, no clue the current policy. But back then we were the premier tester for 76 oils and fuels. We were premier tester for Pennzoil, valvoline, on and on and on. Wanna help your diesel more than additives- buy diesel without alcohols in it. # jealous of Ak. How much corn juice goes into Australian fuel? “Hmm they stopped at 2% gain, I wonder why” Will said. Btw, Them selling to new owners and renaming removes me from legal mess not being able to say their name. Before I could only reference the parent umbrella of 76.


On the fuel side- that guy mentioned HDS - getting rid of sulfur via water. Yup that is one way. That is the only way down under, but here we have more than one way to skin a cat. Long boring to short is major temperature and pressure fluctuations. This keeps water out of it and has very different results in lubricity in the end. Again, many jealous of Ak and this time NV and half Ca get the rewards also. Amazingly adding water makes things lubricate worse. Haha.

Injector build up. Ok. Reread this part of the article and analyze it. 2 stroke is SUPPOSED TO leave an oil film on metal as the fuel burns away. But this left on oil isn’t going to add any lubricant. Yet there is build up from something being left behind on those HIGH pressure common rail injectors. Did he say it was Coking up like ya get on turbo bearings from cooking the oil? No? Hmm. I wonder what it is and if there is any one of the 500 cleaning additives a person could run once a year to clear that if they did add it to their cummins or duramax. The world may never know. smh. But still I agree don’t add that 2 stroke to your lmm. If the oil doesn’t leave a film, what is causing this non coke build up?
ds4 guys cant do the best fix db2 can. Virgin Atf. That lubes better and cleans out any of the build up because of the detergent.

Stanadyne sells something of oil for some reason... and the federal government foipped the bill on its design for some reason, then it was being put in cucv and hmmwv around the world for a few years until the db2 internals got updated. And even though GM manuals never say to replace injectors at any time the military adapted a mileage of 100,000 miles for them at the same time they went away from Stanadyne lube and having 100% of their db2 made with the hardened parts. Coincidence? To be fair, maybe Stanadyne just saw the market to crazy and decided to start making oil for the first time ever randomly. And nevermind the db2 hardened parts also kicked in at same time jp4-jp8 was authorized as fuel for the hmmwv and cucv.

Back directly to that article I did find it interesting he mentioned the negative effect of sulfur being sulfur dioxide but was the first article I ever saw where he neglected to refer to acid rain- the direct reason we got rid of sulfur. The NOX is its own problem and the SO2 we just removed is like a teeter totter. Sulfur down=Nitros up. But meh... details right?


This article is aimed at getting people to not add oils into the fuel. For high pressure, common rail, micro port sized injectors- I agree. All these engines were perfectly designed for ulsd and no one, not even owners of cp3 will ever suffer any negative effects of lowered sulfur, please ignore the mega lawsuits-haha. Really though, even the old 12v cummins injectors stock is 260 bar recommended 280 for longest life. Thats 3770-4060 psi pop pressure. So of course oil build up is going to effect it a little more. But all the modern stuff it is a ridiculous level. The thin oil is not going to compensate that- except reading everyone that added both a lift pump and 2 stroke or atf with the diesel- are the guys getting 300,000 miles from it.... So coincidence?

Polar end groups. Fancy, right? That sounds advanced and the long hydrocarbon chains- those two “put back” the missing lubricity he says. Ok, do you guys remember the people putting magnets over the fuel lines to magnetize your fuel? Yeah... Polar as in magnetically polarized. Please, read up your favorite mythbusters on this. It was a ploy by a huge oil company to advertise why buy theirs and was debunked so many years ago and they had to pay back customers at the pump pricing. Legal crap I still can’t say their name, but BIG GREEN DINOSAUR .

Long chain: Longer chain is thicker oil basically. And ONLY because the alcohols being added are SUPER SHORT chain they ignite too soon. You need an average of the long and short to get flash point correct. Add short chain in means also add long chain in and it comes out the same average in the end. Think diesel fuel in the middle. Now short is gasoline, longer is thin oil like 10wt. Same as how guys make “black diesel”. Used engine oil plus gasoline= diesel flash point. And if you get it perfect you also get similar btu per gallon.
but look at APPROVED diesel additives that are ulsd rated. Why? No or almost no sulfur. They don’t want you adding back in what was taken out. Do longer chain lube better than short? Yes. 10wt is better than diesel, which is better than kerosene, which is better than gasoline, which is better than alcohols.
Alcohol burns FAST. Diesel burns slooowwww. Take 9/10 diesel and add 1/10 methanol. Watch how easy it lights on fire and how fast it burns. You just made kerosene. Want diesel fuel, take away 10% of that and add in oil. Poof it is now LONGER CHAIN ADDITIVE diesel fuel. Saudi Aramco was busted for this advertising mess. For this guy to include these two examples of how the FIX the fuel and add lubricity back into it means he write articles for a magazine that has NO EXPERIENCE in the oil and fuel industry.
He basically is talking about metals manufacturing and is showing two examples of alchemy. He wouldn’t even be laughed out of a convention if giving this as a speech, people would leave of embarrassment like having a mentally challenged person that can barely count to ten explaining physics.

By all means. Don’t run Stanadyne in your Stanandyne pump just because it doesn’t help with it hese systems over 10,000 psi. But that doesn’t apply to a 6.5

 

[dbrannon79]

there was a write up somewhere on another forum a few years back where a few average folks had gotten together and sent several different samples of diesel with additives along with one that had 2-stroke oil in it for lubricity testing. I will have to look for it but it had some interesting results. I know it didn't show anything about coking but I think I remember it showing that bio and 2-stroke was a good additive on the lube side. the test they did was one of those metal on metal scoring tests for wear on a bearing, so idk if that was even a good test or not.

I do have a question for @Will L. on the atf in a ds4 pump. I had thought atf wouldn't hurt it or effect the ring for the optic sensor, maybe I read that wrong. but how would it hurt one if used as an additive. or even marvel mystery oil since it's somewhat thin like oil?

as for the use of bio, I know using different base stocks make the difference. different oils cook and turn into nasty stuff at different temps. plain veggie oil for example turns to tar rather quickly if I use it on my flat top grill where olive oil and animal lard fat can take a lot higher temps before burning. I would think that holds the same in engines if veggie oil is used in the bio, it would gum up the works faster and cause more damage than other types of oils.

 

[dbrannon79]

I found the forum thread. it's on DP. not sure if I can link it here so if you DDG (duck duck go) search "lubricity additive study results" the forum thread will pop up about the third one down. There is a few downloadable pdf'd that have the results from the testing site used on a couple of other links shown in the DDG search too.

 

[Will L.]

The amount of atf we used to run in db2 trucks was enough to mess up the reading of the optic. It didn’t damage the optic but it didn’t read through it properly.

The thing that Spicer did was one of a few like that- but this was the most brands tested.
I used to be a member there and many of us donated to that test.
Only thing i was unhappy with was there was supposed to also be equal cost testing- like using more motor oil at a higher ratios because it was low cost. I was one of the guys saying we used motor oil and atf. But the motor oil was supposed to be ran through centrifuge, and also a new sample of it and atf. The atf was never tested. But definitely not complaining because that was a major undertaking and mad respect for making it happen.

A few of us had the testing done of just new vs used motor oil and it was obvious the used oil caused issues and the new oil helped. A major help of the used & uncleaned oil was to get people to stop pouring it straight in - so that’s good. I was guilty of doing that once or twice through the years, using only a t-shirt as filter. Dumb.

Working at the plastic to fuel place we had one of the testers- so I played with it some there. The difference of synthetic fuel to stuff you buy at the pump is huge, even as an additive. We were close to producing and selling to some of the major fuel suppliers as an additive, but the owners didn’t want to get locked into those contracts - their target was a plant in every major city. That was all squished by obama administration and epa in the licensing dept. sad really. More disappointing when trumps crew was more of the same. Some real “good ol boys” stuff on both sides of the isle.
But I did learn the new fully synthetic atf worked well at the higher ratios with that device. I still just suggest for most everyone use the stanandyne is easier. Something not gone over in that testing was removal of carbon build up. And from the testing we did in the 90’s at Unical- Stanandyne was great for that, only surpassed by doing the straight atf flush method. No ds4 can withstand that obviously.

 

[JMJNet]

On BioD, at least the way I understand it.
BioD although it comes from Used Cooking Oil, it is NOT the Cooking oil anymore (no grimes or stickiness).
It has to go through a separation process to become BioD.
The by product is Glycerin aka Soap.
The Waste Veggie Oil have to be filtered really good before it can be processed to become BioD.

I am sure you can read it yourself by searching DDG or G.oog.

The problem is the quality of BioD depends a lot on how the WVO is filtered and the washing process.
Some homebrew are not standardized washing so it still have a lot of the glycerin which in reality is not BioD yet.

I used 100% aka B100 once and it did clogged the fuel filter fast.
BioD is esther so it is a good cleaner that cause that clog.
In that sense, it is also a good lubricant without the sulfur.
BioD also gel very fast, so it cannot be used in the north winter climate.

Once the Govt subsidy was gone, the popularity has gone down.
Now, it is mostly used as additive added to the Diesel fuel gas station (B10 (10%) or less).

 

[Big T]

On BioD, at least the way I understand it.
BioD although it comes from Used Cooking Oil, it is NOT the Cooking oil anymore (no grimes or stickiness).
It has to go through a separation process to become BioD.
The by product is Glycerin aka Soap.
The Waste Veggie Oil have to be filtered really good before it can be processed to become BioD.

I am sure you can read it yourself by searching DDG or G.oog.

The problem is the quality of BioD depends a lot on how the WVO is filtered and the washing process.
Some homebrew are not standardized washing so it still have a lot of the glycerin which in reality is not BioD yet.

I used 100% aka B100 once and it did clogged the fuel filter fast.
BioD is esther so it is a good cleaner that cause that clog.
In that sense, it is also a good lubricant without the sulfur.
BioD also gel very fast, so it cannot be used in the north winter climate.

Once the Govt subsidy was gone, the popularity has gone down.
Now, it is mostly used as additive added to the Diesel fuel gas station (B10 (10%) or less).

If you want to clean a fuel tank, run 100% Bio Diesel (B100) through it.

 

[Will L.]

If you want to clean a fuel tank, run 100% Bio Diesel (B100) through it.

Again, that depends on the type. Soy or corn- yes. Most Plant fats except Peanut sugarcane, and a couple others- yes. Animal fats- No. almost all of those generate buildup. And keep in mind, removing grime from the tank means you are moving it somewhere else. So either have a good filter you are ok to plug and replace- or know that build up is going to the ip or injectors where clearances could be the issue.