Question for the electrical guys!

[ryanryan]

I am thinking about buying a 220v welder. The problem is, I don't have any room left in my main panel in my house. The only alternative I can think of is that I have a sub-panel for my hot tub. It is a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and the sub-panel has 4 "poles", 2 of which are being used for the 60 amp for the hot tub and 2 are left open.

So my first question is, can I use a 40 amp GFCI, instead of a 30 amp GFI? I have multiple 40's available to me for free, but I don't know if that is bad for the welder or no(it is supposed to have a 30 amp breaker, which is minimum though correct, there isn't a maximum is there?)? If I could use this, what do I do with the "piggy" wire? Wire it into the neutral port on the GFCI, or connect it to the neutral bar on the sub-panel itself(like it is supposed to be)? The reason for this is because the welder has a 3 prong plug, with no neutral. Or should I just wire the neutral wire into the GFCI, like it is supposed to be, and just cap off the other end that will go to the outlet with a marrette connector?

If none of that will work, I will need a normal 30 amp GFI, correct? Can I use this in the Siemens sub-panel I have as long as it is a Siemens breaker?

Is there anything else I can do since my main panel is full?

Other info:

Main panel is Stab-lok, Sub-panel is Siemens, pics below.

P.S. Sorry for the long post, I just like to completely explain myself!... This is the welder,
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...+Electric+MIG-Pak%AE+180+Wire+Feed+Welder.jsp

 

[bison]

I would use the subpanel,with a 40 amp breaker,you may have to turn the hot tub of when using the welder,cause both on will prob flip the 60 amp main breaker.
the welder uses no ground,3 prong plugin and receptable(mine does'nt either,i have a 250 ac/dc hobart)
Black and red wire are both hot(breaker),white goes to the neutral bar.If you want you can use a dryer plugin and receptable,it has 4 prongs so you could make ground as well.

I aint electrician,but i wired my house, shop and barn myself over the yrs,i had no permit either.

 

[ryanryan]

I would use the subpanel,with a 40 amp breaker,you may have to turn the hot tub of when using the welder,cause both on will prob flip the 60 amp main breaker.
the welder uses no ground,3 prong plugin and receptable(mine does'nt either,i have a 250 ac/dc hobart)
Black and red wire are both hot(breaker),white goes to the neutral bar.If you want you can use a dryer plugin and receptable,it has 4 prongs so you could make ground as well.

I aint electrician,but i wired my house, shop and barn myself over the yrs,i had no permit either.

I thought with these welders it was 2 hot wires and a ground and no neutral???

 

[ak diesel driver]

there's always a nuetral sometimes they add a ground. When you get out of your panel and back to utilities they're tied together

 

[rpidelt]

there's always a nuetral sometimes they add a ground. When you get out of your panel and back to utilities they're tied together

I'd have to disagree with that statement. Most standard NEMA wiring configurations have a grounding conductor, versus a grounded conduuctor, if voltages are over 125VAC. I've never seen a piece of equipment such as a welder that did not reguire a grounding conductor.

The grounded and grounding conductors should be tied together at the point of the main disconnect and kept separate at all other panels per the NEC.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I could show you many mostly older stuff check out dryer cords and seen many welder with the same.

 

[ryanryan]

Update....

Well, I picked up the welder today!

Below is a couple of pics of the plug...

This is a pic of the manual, and it talks about input: breaker, cable, fuses, etc.

So, after reading that, what wire should I use(10 gauge, 8 gauge?), and I should get a 40A breaker, like it says, for my sub-panel, correct? Or should I stick with 30A?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[btfarm]

40A breaker and #8ga to the box. I don't have me EE pocket handbook here at the moment but if you're going to run an extension cord you can go with #10ga wire for that up to about 25 ft.

 

[ryanryan]

I ended up going with 10 gauge and a 30A breaker. I was going to go 8/40 but the store didn't have enough wire, so I decided along with input from others to just go with 10/30. I got all of the wire run and the outlet installed, and I'm going to wire the breaker into the sub tomorrow.

 

[rpidelt]

I could show you many mostly older stuff check out dryer cords and seen many welder with the same.

Dryer cords were hot-hot-gnd, now they are hot-hot-neutral-gnd. I'd be very interested in seeing actual wiring diagrams that didn't include a ground.

 

[iamdave0887]

I thought with these welders it was 2 hot wires and a ground and no neutral???

That's how my 220V welder is wired. I"m running my 220V air compressor the same way off the same circuit. No problems.

 

[bison]

look at the wire colour coming out of a 220 3 prong molded cord.On my welder and lathe they are Red,black and white. Neutral is always white,green is ground and only provided with a 4 prong plugin where moisture is a concern.ie dryers/washers and such.
in my panel box neutral and ground are ultimately connected as the neutral bar is bolted to the box as well as the ground.
Ground is only a safety against a short in the appliance itself.
A lot of hand tools still have a 2 prong plug,no ground provided

 

[dms4x4]

Keep in mind a couple things........

1. The breaker doesn't protect the equipment, it protects the wire. So you match the wire to the breaker. For the 20 amp input shown on the label, a #10 with a 30 amp breaker will be sufficient. The recommendations on the label give you a good safety margin, but cost you a bunch of money for no benefit.

2. Everything must be grounded. In the case of a welder or older dryer with a 3 prong plug, the 220 volt load is balanced, so you don't need a neutral, and the third wire is tied to the equipment and serves as the ground. There is no current in this wire. Use an ohm meter and verify this by placing one lead on the prong, the other on the equipment housing.

3. In the case of small tools or applinces with only two prongs, the housing will be double insulated and of a non-conductive material.

4. It will be ok to use your sub panel for this application, as you most likely won't be welding and hot tubbing at the same time.

5. The neutral and ground are not to be tied together at the sub panel, but should run separate back to the main panel, so you should have four wires from the main panel to the sub panel. This will prevent normal return current from running back on the ground wire. At the main panel, you will have one point where the neutral and ground bars are tied together.

 

[ryanryan]

Keep in mind a couple things........

1. The breaker doesn't protect the equipment, it protects the wire. So you match the wire to the breaker. For the 20 amp input shown on the label, a #10 with a 30 amp breaker will be sufficient. The recommendations on the label give you a good safety margin, but cost you a bunch of money for no benefit.

2. Everything must be grounded. In the case of a welder or older dryer with a 3 prong plug, the 220 volt load is balanced, so you don't need a neutral, and the third wire is tied to the equipment and serves as the ground. There is no current in this wire. Use an ohm meter and verify this by placing one lead on the prong, the other on the equipment housing.

3. In the case of small tools or applinces with only two prongs, the housing will be double insulated and of a non-conductive material.

4. It will be ok to use your sub panel for this application, as you most likely won't be welding and hot tubbing at the same time. LMAO, why not???):h....On a serious note, the only reason I was worried about this is because, twice a day the hot tub will turn all pumps on to purge the system, but worst case scenario, it will trip the breaker and I will reset it.

5. The neutral and ground are not to be tied together at the sub panel, but should run separate back to the main panel, so you should have four wires from the main panel to the sub panel. This will prevent normal return current from running back on the ground wire. At the main panel, you will have one point where the neutral and ground bars are tied together.

Thanks for the reply. I guess I forgot to update this thread! I ended up getting 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker. Got it all wired and everything is working perfectly. It is 2 hot wires and a ground, no neutral.

Also got my first project done too....:thumbsup:

 

[rpidelt]

Keep in mind a couple things........

1. The breaker doesn't protect the equipment, it protects the wire. So you match the wire to the breaker. For the 20 amp input shown on the label, a #10 with a 30 amp breaker will be sufficient. The recommendations on the label give you a good safety margin, but cost you a bunch of money for no benefit.

2. Everything must be grounded. In the case of a welder or older dryer with a 3 prong plug, the 220 volt load is balanced, so you don't need a neutral, and the third wire is tied to the equipment and serves as the ground. There is no current in this wire. Use an ohm meter and verify this by placing one lead on the prong, the other on the equipment housing.

3. In the case of small tools or applinces with only two prongs, the housing will be double insulated and of a non-conductive material.

4. It will be ok to use your sub panel for this application, as you most likely won't be welding and hot tubbing at the same time.

5. The neutral and ground are not to be tied together at the sub panel, but should run separate back to the main panel, so you should have four wires from the main panel to the sub panel. This will prevent normal return current from running back on the ground wire. At the main panel, you will have one point where the neutral and ground bars are tied together.

Great post and I agree with you 100%. One thing to add that most people never take into consideration is voltage drop as it applies to statement #1.