NAPA Starters

[bhelms22]

Has anyone had any expirience with NAPA brand starters? I bought one a month or so ago and it is already giving trouble. Acts like the solenoid is bad already. For $300 I'd expect it to last longer than that, but it does have a lifetime warranty on it.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I just fix my OEM one

 

[bhelms22]

I usually do too, still have my AC Delco, but I was away from home and no one had a solenoid.

 

[ak diesel driver]

have you priced a selenoid from the parts store? It's crazy like $250. I bought one from an auto electric rebuilder made in brazil for $60. I've heard to stay away from the $30 made in china ones

 

[bhelms22]

Thats the other problem, someone (O'Riley?) said they could have one delivered that day from the warehouse but it was $250 or so. One reason I just bought the whole thing and went on my way.

I was thinking and it seems like it only does it after I drive it, get out, and try to crank it again real soon. Maybe the alternator or a battery this time around instead of starter?

 

[ak diesel driver]

could be heatsoak or brushes shifting when it warms up

 

[bhelms22]

You think this is one of those situations where it's best to just pull it off and take it in for the warranty?

My ACDelco's main problem was it would frequently lock up into the flywheel, even after being rebuilt. But it never gave me trouble with heat soaking.

 

[ak diesel driver]

if it was me I'd get the oem one working first (for a spare) and then warranty the other one. someone probably really cranked on it and the winding may be close to shorting when it gets hot. as for the oem one sticking does the motor continue to run (starter motor)?

 

[bhelms22]

I've replaced about every part in the OEM at one point or another and it always continued to lock up. The motor wouldn't keep running, but I would have to crawl underneath and pull the starter loose then bolt it back on and it would act fine for a while.

 

[ak diesel driver]

needs shimmed then

 

[Badaxe]

Will this heatsoak/lockup situation eat the batteries while driving around?

 

[ak diesel driver]

no

 

[buddy]

When I pulled my OEM one off it didnt have any shims, are many of them shimmed?

Ive never had to shim a starter, so just wondering are the shims slightly thicker on one end (or only go on one side of starter) to change trajectory of the gear a bit up or down or left or right so it won't slap the flywheel, or bind in the teeth, or potentially not grab the teeth enough? Depending on what the situation might be.

 

[jmiller]

They normally don't need shims.

On the Housing opposite of the Solenoid, it will say "NO SHIM".

Some early ones did require shims, 2mm according to the shop I just bought mine from.

I had to put 0.5mm of shim in my new one because it would hang or not fully engage.

I was measuring the gap between the ring gear and the starter shaft, but failed to assure the ring gear tooth lined up with the shaft. On gassers, this dimension is 1/8". I have not crawled back under to remeasure the gap on the 6.5.

With the initial measurement I made before shimming and after shimming, I added 1/64" of gap. I blame the need to add some shims to the rebuilt housing and sand blasting or bushing alignment during a replacement.

If the solenoid is not pulling in, shim until it does. I believe the 1/8" gap is correct but need to verify it on our motor. Grab your drill index and check it out.

This was my post that I was working on when I realized my measurement error:

We learned about 6.5 Starters today


Symptoms:
Slow Crank
when hot, cranking was slower

Troubleshooting:
Check cables, condition good
Check Terminal, clean no signs of any corrosion
Tested batteries, tested good on electronic battery tester

Stopped in to talk with a local auto electric shop. He suspected brushes or bushings were worn out. Either could cause the starter to slow down.
Had him build one up, he was cheaper than the auto parts stores.

After installation, Crank speed was great. But I noticed the bendix did not seem to retract properly. It didn't sound right. Like it was hanging in the ring gear.

Went back to the shop with the core and for him to listen to the noise. Later in the day, the starter did not fully enage until the key was hit twice.

We learned there are two nose covers for our starters.

The early version required 2mm of shim.
The later version had the words "No Shims" cast into the nose piece. (On the solenoid mount, trans side) The dimension from the mounting surface to the shaft center is 49mm on the later.​

The nose housing was verified to be a "No Shim" piece.

We also learned that the clearance between the ring gear tooth and the starter shaft is different that the 1/8" clearance for chevy gas motor starters. I measured at least 7/32".


After adding 2 1/4mm shims, the clearance was 15/64", but less than 1/4".

The starter seems quieter. I will monitor.
​

So I'll crawl under the truck soon and check it out. Its rained the last couple times I had time to do it.

Hope this helps.

 

[iamdave0887]

If a part has a lifetime warranty it usually needs it. That's the only way they can justify selling it, because it's a huge pile of crap without the warranty.

I personally rebuild my own starters and alternators and run them up on a test bench before installation.

That whole "$250 for a solenoid" is absolute BS. Parts stores(all of them) do that to make it seem like a better deal to buy a shit starter than parts to fix your otherwise good starter. I can get a Made in USA solenoid for a 28MT for ~$50 from my local rebuilder.

The 27MT direct drive on the early 6.2s was said to have a "$150" solenoid from those who checked chain parts stores. Brand new made in USA solenoid from my rebuilder $15.

 

[jmiller]

If the solenoid tries to engage, but won't start, its bound up. Either the bendix is rubbing on the ring gear or the lever is worn out.

If it is fully engaged (pulled the cover and looked /w main battery disconnected hitting the key), and the starter does not run, either the contacts are bad or the motor is bad. (like brushes)

You should not need a solenoid unless the coil itself is open, or is so old the contacts burned out.


*On Edit:
Or you get ramy with a wrench and bust the baklight solenoid cover. (done that a few times myself)

 

[Badaxe]

Is bound up the clicking noise when it wont crank over? And who is this source with the $60 parts, share the wealth.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I got my selenoid from Romaine Electric. and no bound up isn't the clicking noise. if the contacts in the selenoid get worn it will click trying to activate the contacts

 

[jmiller]

Do you hear the click?

Even if you don't, the solenoid could still be ok.

Electrical checks:
If you have a meter, check the solenoid for continuity. Measure from the start wire (small wire) to the starter motor lead wire. (bottom contact of the solenoid) The solenoid grounds through the starter motor itself.
You can check to ground, but checking at the terminal just tests the solenoid for continuity.

If you don't have a meter, build a test light.


Mechanical Verification:
Pull the bell housing cover.
Remove the main battery cable from the battery. (To keep the starter from running)
Have someone turn the key while watching the engagement. (the start circuit will still have power from the other battery)
If the starter can not fully engage, the starter motor WILL NOT get power. ( because the bendix must be fully out for the contacts to touch in the solenoid)

If the starter is not fully engaging, you'll have issues with no turn over. This would also indicate you need to add a couple shims to that starter. Because the starter is rubbing too much on the ring gear.


Since you put a new starter on, I would bet on mechanical interference for your no start. But you have to verify the engagement.


NAPA will bench test it, If it engages and runs it will be NTF'd and charge back the store. If the store can test it, they'll just hand it back you as working.


Experience:
My Freshly rebuilt starter had Two no start incidents. After adding the shims, it has been fine.

I still need verify the measurement, but rain and a full garage have hampered that.


I'm Big on VERIFY it is BAD, BEFORE going to the parts store. I've spent my share of $$$$ on hunches and suggestions. None of us have extra $$$$ to throw around. Many of us don't fully understand each system in our vehicles and get frustrated when we don't know or cant' figure it out. That's were this place comes in.

Good luck

 

[bhelms22]

I aint never had the dust/inspection shield off of a NV4500. Before I climb under there next chance I get, does it unbolt and drop off the same as on a SM465?