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Making a 700R4 live.

Missy Good Wench

Wild Blonde from Cloud Mt
Messages
1,683
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65
Location
Newberg Oregon
The 700R came into being in the 80's and replaced the TH350 in the 4x4's

The 700 started out life on a sour note and earned a very poor reputation from the gitgo

The input shafts on the early boxes were a 27 spline unit that was pressed into the input clutch drum.

These shafts would crack and break readily as they were drilled with several passages and holes.

Breakage almost assured the tranny would scatter all over the street.

The early trannies 82-85 in the 4x4's are a very poor choice to build.

The later boxes 87 on are the best choice. The "K"Case (has a big K on the bellhousing) are the best choice.

The 87 to 91 were hydraulic shifted and controled with a TV cable.
The later units were called the 4L60E and were all electronic.

The later units have a 30 spline input shaft that is pressed into the input drum.

Although better, even the late drums can and will fail in the spline area if used under rough conditions.

This condition can be corected and upgraded with the addition of a hard steel ring that presses over the hub area. There is a kit for this that comes with the ring, a new front piston and seals.

The front pump was originally a 9 vane pump and has been upgraded (aftermarket) to a 13 vane (13 is the gold standard)

There are also mods needed to improve the front pump bushing and seal area to prevent seal and bushing failure.

The reverse input clutch is the next item.

This clutch assembly is generally fine for most applications in its stock form.

There are some mods that are done during the installation of a "Shift kit" and are well covered By transgo.

The front sprag is weak and can let go under hard use.
Replacement with an HO unit is highly recommended.

The gear train in these boxes is not the greatest and the planetaries should be replaced with ones that have the 5 pinion carriers.

All bushings need to be replaced at the time of overhaul.

The rear roller lock (Low gear) needs to be replaced with an HO unit to enhance low gear.

The 2-4 band is another weak point. These are available in several incarnations.

There is a HD RED band that is good for most applications that are not all out race.

There is also a kevlar band available.

The 2-4 servo needs to be upgraded too (Round unit on TH side of case)

The servo piston under the cover needs to be upgraded to an aftermarket one with different sized piston heads to enhance the holding power.

The 700 having a very low first gear has a fairly broad spread between 1 and 2 this puts a fairly good amount of stress on the band when the 1-2 shift occurs and especially when things are happening under full throttle.

A broken 2-4 band kills second gear as well as OD (4th)

The3-4 clutch is another sore spot.
These clutches are too few and too light.

Thw aftermarket has some good parts available to remedy this situation.

A higher steel plate and friction plate count takes care of the failure in the 3-4 clutch.

The forward clutch is fine as long as the tranny is from a V8 model.

Do not use a V6 model in a truck, they are too light.

The Sunshell is also a weak spot.
The sunshell splined hub area is notorious for ripping out.

There is a fix.

Its called the "BEAST" and has a reinforced hub to eliminate the failure.

There are some companies that offer a kit that allows the use of needle thrust bearings throughout the gearbox.

This mod eliminates all the thrust washers. (weak spot)

The remaining mods are in the valve body and include valve changes and spring changes to improve reliability and durability.

Transgo makes some very good shift Kits as well as other good parts.

Transgo makes a KIT called then 700-LU
This kit will allow the 700R4 to opperate properly and lockup without the need for any electrical connections at all.

Them Kit allows the lockup to be custom tailored for shift speed.

The converter is fairly small in the 700 and with the included lockup clutch this makes the pump and the turbine small also.

A fully welded pump and turbine assembly are a must have in a 4x4 application.

The lockup clutch needs to be a HD one and there are even Kevlar clutches available.

With the above mods made expect to pay at least $1500 even if you do the bench work yourself.

A fully done 700R4 is not a cheap tranny (If you want it to live)

The biggest area of error is the adjustment of the TV cable.

Poor adjustment can and will result in failure even of a properly built tranny.

The cable must be adjusted by the instructions aupplied with the shift kit.

The test is a simple one.

Roll out on a very light throttle acceleration and as soon as the 1-2 shift occurs you mash the throttle to the mat, the tranny should drop right back to first gear.

If the tranny does not drop to first the adjustment is wrong.



The 700R4 is not at all a heavy duty box but can if built right handle some serious power.

The 700 can hold a 6.2/6.5 with a turbo and live fine.

Keep in mind though that the tranny needs all the mods to live.

I hope this info helps others.

Missy
 
Good write up. I blew a few of them up. The TH350 was a popular swap out for the gassers as they didn't need the OD as much as the diesels do. Back in those days most tranny shops kept the adaptor plate in stock to toss the 700. Of course like anything else aftermarket parts have come along way and the tranny can be improved. Still no match for a 4l80e but in older apps the standalone from what I have read( And I read alot) can have thier own issues. Me personally I have decided to see how the CUCV works out with the 35's. The TH400 is really tight and it seems ashame to yank it just for a little more highway speed. my 83 in my photo album had a TH400 with 3:73's and 33's and wasn't bad. You wern't gonna get any speeding tickets but it could do highway speed of 65-70. My Jimmy(also see photo album) had a rebuilt 700. With 4:10's and 35's it was actually a really nice combo. Did nice highway speed but had balls off the line.
 
I have calculated the RPM's that my 91 Burb will turn with a 400

The butt gears are 3.73, with 35 inch tires, at 60 MPH it will spin 2150 RPM +- a tad

The 6.5 in the 94 Burb with the 4L80 and stock tires (2500 4x4) turns 2200 at 60 MPH

So where is the advantage

The engine RPM is actually a little less with the 400 and the large tires.

The 4L and the 400 have the same ratios 1-2-3 so ?????

The 400 needs a vacuum source and the pump mounted control valve to run the modulator.

For the life of me I dont see any advantage with the 4L80 under these conditions.

The 700R with the 3.06 1st gear is sort of nice to get a set of large tires rolling but the rest of its issues are ?????????????????

The OD will pull the RPMS way down. About 1500 give or take a tad.

This is way too low in the RPM range for these engines. The mileage is gonna fall on its butt.

These engines like to run right about 2000 RPM. This seems to be the sweet spot.

2150 or so is perfect.

I had a 1986 Burb 2500 4x4 with the 6.2 and the TH 400 just a stock rig. It would get 23 MPG all day long out on the super slab at 60-65 MPH

And about 18 or so round town.

The extra work and cost to do a stand alone 4L80 is in my estimation very ????????

For the little 1500 burbs pickups and blazers the OD tranny on a stock rig with stock tires does help a bunch as the end ratio with stock tires puts the RPMs up near 3000 at 60MPH


MGW
 
Random

Well I grew up with stick shifts and just dont have much use for them aside from the class 8 stuff.

Off road I prefer the hydraulic drive. Now if your gig is rock crawling then a stick with a whole buttload of gears so it creeps along so slow you need a mics to see if it moved is way cool.

A TH400 and a NP 205 is really hard to beat. Almost indestructible.

The 700R is built way way too light in factory trim to be reliable.

The 4L80 is OK but has too many wires going to it.

My idea is zero but I can live with the one that a 400 requires.

Now a 5 speed stick with a torque converter and a lockup would be real sweet.



Hmmmm , not a new idea but not practical
 
Yeah the lower 1st gear in the 700 was nice with my Jimmy. I don't plan on any 200 miles trips with te CUCV so I think the TH400 will be fine. Trucks gonna see some rough terrain cuttin fire wood. I agree after driving class 8 all day I justt wanna go "Click" into drive.
 
The auto boxes that they have for the class 8 stuff are ok but IMHO have a limited area of useage.

I dont even think much of the new computer/air shifted 18 speed rangers though.

18 speed ranger is what I have in the Big rig and I love it. Just too easy to handle.

As far as the small rigs, yup Click into D and mash the skinny pedal.

MGW
 
I'm not fond of the autoshifted trannies in rigs these days either. I'm planning on running a sm465/np205 with a ranger o/d unit on it. The ranger can split every gear on a 465 so and also mounts in front of the trans so counting the low range on the tcase, it will effectively give me 16 forward gears.
 
That should give you enough to have one for every occasion :D

I really like the hydraulic drive out in the crud. Just gives everything a much needed finer control as compared to a on/off clutch.

No slack between shifts when ya need to get out of a tight spot and the going is really rough.

My very first 4x4 was a 1967 International 3/4 ton with the 304 V8 and a 4 speed. Not sure what T case it had. It was a divorced setup though.

That thing was a beast for sure, no power steering, drum brakes on all four :eek:

Kept it fopr several years and then graduated to a 1976 Ford F250 4x4 XLT with 360 V8 ):h and the NP 203 full time drive behind the C6 auto

Loved that truck.

I have had so many different rigs since then. OMG I can hardly remember all the 4x4's that I have bought, sold, traded and or ?????????// since the mid 70's

76 ford PU 4x4
75 Blazer 4x4
82 Blazer 4x4 diesel
86 Burb 4x4 diesel 2500
76 Chevy 1500 shorty 4x4 with 455 Olds that is stuffed in it.
75 Chevy 2500 3/4 ton 2 wheel drive 454
75 chevy diesel 3/4 ton 4x4
76 Ram charger 4x4 with 318 (Put together from parts ** Garage sale rig)
93 GMC 2500 6.5TD 4x4 extend cab
94 GMC dually 4x4 6.5 TD crew cab
92 Burb 1500 gasser 1500 4x4
95 Burb 2500 6.5 TD 4x4
95 Burb 2500 4x4 with 454 (Repalced the TD one above)
97 Ford Power stroke F350 crewcab 4x4 (Sold in 2000 POS :sad:)
86 GMC 3+3 crew cab 4x4 with 454 :thumbsup: Great truck
84 Blazer diesel 4x4
94 Burb 2500 6.5 4x4 (still own this one)
91 Burb 1500 Diesel 4x4
94 Burb 6.5 (was similar to the one we still have)
95 DaHooooley 4x4 6.5 (sitting right out front as I write this) :D
98 Explorer ( inherited from family) :confused:
91 Gasser Burb 1500 4x4 soon to be diesel :D

87 Burb 1500 4x4 diesel (Parts rig) never registered to me
82 Burb 1500 4x4 gasser (Parts rig) never registered to me

I am not sure, I may have forgotten something but I think this is it :confused:

Just sampled the field for sure.

Gotta love them GM rigs. :thumbsup:

I like change.

Kept the 86 Dually crewcab from fall 2000 to June 2007
The 94 Burb we still have was an Ebay buggy, bought in late winter 2005 rebuilt the engine in spring 2006 due to high miles and a blown head gasket.

You have all followed the build on DaHooooley

The Explorer, well it was the Father inlaws so its gonna stay.

The 91 Burb is a fav and will likely be around for some time.

The others came and went whenever I got a bug in my butt.

Missy needs a project to keep sane and happy :eek:

Boredom sets in, something is gonna happen.

Gotta have a project to keep me thinking and busy ( as if I didn't have anything better to do eh ??? Right UH HUH !!! ):h


Thie above list does not include any of the regular passenger cars that I/we have had.

77 TransAm (Smokey and the Bandit car, Yup Identical)
76 Thunder Bird 2 door coupe
76 Lincoln Mark 4
79 Olds calais diesel
80 Olds calais diesel
80 Olds cutlass wagon diesel


Now if I go back to the early days.

There was a 56 chevy, 58 DKW, 70 Plymouth SuperBird, 67 Fairlane GTA, 67 IH 4x4 pickup, 67 Fairlane wagon,


OMG what a used car lot.

Damn, never put them all in a list before.

Several were interim vehicles to fill a need, some were fool around projects.

Some were kept for a fair amount of time and used as daily drivers.

The Little Dodge Ram Charger was one that I bought at a gagrage sale with a bad tranny and even worse engine.

Scarfed up a good 318 from the u pull it yard and rebuilt the TF 727.

Installed a fancy dash with AC and all the goodies along with better interior scrounged at the U pull it.

Dont remember where it went (sold or maybe a trade)

One 94 Burb was an interim rig I drove and then sold it when I got the 91 diesel 4x4.

Cleaned house, sold the 86 Dually and the 91 Burb when I got the 95 DaHooooley.
Also sold the 84 Blazer. Lovely little rig but was Moldy inside and nobody else wanted to ride in it cause is smelled bad.

The cars all slowly went away as we went more to 4x4 Burbs as the daily driver .

Wish I had that Superbird today. :D That sucker would fetch a high price.

Lizard Puke green with the 426 Hemi and a 4 speed. :thumbsup:

Got that just before I graduated from High school.

The TransAm was a cool ride.

Bought that one 3 days after I watched the Movie :D

It had 1500 miles on it (Demo IIRC) 400 Poncho with a 4 speed OH YEAH buddy :D

Ah well so much for memory lane.

Geeez so much for hijacking my own info thread :eek:


Missy
 
Mine only has to live long enough for me to collect parts for a manual swap. I hate slushboxes.

X2.

I have found out that if you go the route of the SM465 and the 32 spline in/out NP208 that the driveline was the same length in my blazer. I actually used the front and rear driveshafts that cam stock with the truck from the factory. They were exactly the same length and both rear driveshafts had the same spline count at the T-case output shaft.

Might make things a little easier for you there.
 
I was die hard stick shift in the class 8s but I'll tell you what...with my fuel trucks, if your gonna hire drivers, auto is the way to go. After working for the Town for 4 yrs all town trucks have autos and some of the monkeys that drive these trucks shouldn't be driving at all and they hold up quite well and are easier on the truck. I kick myself for not going auto in the big trucks. Nice thing is any idiot can drive it.
 
X2.

I have found out that if you go the route of the SM465 and the 32 spline in/out NP208 that the driveline was the same length in my blazer. I actually used the front and rear driveshafts that cam stock with the truck from the factory. They were exactly the same length and both rear driveshafts had the same spline count at the T-case output shaft.

Might make things a little easier for you there.

Length isn't gonna matter for my swap. If I get a ranger o/d unit, I'll need custom driveshafts. It will add a few inches to the trans/tcase assembly plus the 205 tcase doesn't have a slip yoke in the tail section. Its all gonna have to be redone. I am thinking about trying to find a whole parts truck because i want the sm465/np205 combo out of an older truck, but I want the hydro clutch and bell housing out of a later model.
 
Aces

The Big autos will handle a truck but not what I am used to. At #105,500 with the trailer I don't think that the auto is the way to fly.

Yup the truck driver wanna beeeees.

Seen a lot of them folks.

MGW
 
Steering wheel grabbers. FWIW Some of the Sand Trailer down on Long Island were running Pete''s with 550+HP cats and Autos and said they works great. I never drove one. They run 120,000(sometimes more) on tri axle Dump trailers.
 
I was die hard stick shift in the class 8s but I'll tell you what...with my fuel trucks, if your gonna hire drivers, auto is the way to go. After working for the Town for 4 yrs all town trucks have autos and some of the monkeys that drive these trucks shouldn't be driving at all and they hold up quite well and are easier on the truck. I kick myself for not going auto in the big trucks. Nice thing is any idiot can drive it.
Well you don't want just any idiot driving your trucks anyways.
 
I've shook hands with an Eaton AutoShift (10spd) in a Century class, with a N-14 select and it was a nightmare when auto shifting when empty. The best way I found was to switch the little 'paddle' to manual and bump it twice to double up. With the engine brake ON, it would pulse the brake to lower the R's just in time to shift. Couldn't get it to double down tho. It was weird how it bumped the the R's up all by itself on a down shift. Roll out with the clutch, tickle the loud pedal then flail away at the flimsy paddle shifter. :drive:

Then it was onto the straight 10, super 10, 13spd and 18spd. I liked the 13 personally. Cat C-15. Twin turbo in series. Was too quiet tho. The Cummins could wake anything up.

Ha ha, that was then.

Oh and the best 3&4 clutch I've found is the Raybestos Z-Pak. Also the TransGo '700 2&3' shift kit is nice stuff.

One note on 5-pinion planets, the 5 pinion China versions (lower cost) are NOT as strong as AC Delco (stock) 4-pinions.

It takes a laundry list of parts to get a TH700R4 up to snuff, but it's the logical choice being 'retrofittable' without all the computer garb, and having your cake and eating it too on gearing.

There's a bunch of upgrades as mentioned by MGW. It takes a savvy builder to get them right.
 
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GMC

Right on Bro
I have had a chance to fool with a Super 18 with the air shifter. OMG NOOOOOO WAY in this world would I want to deal with that thing.

Floating a regular Super 18 through the gears is like spreading soft butter on toast.
The Lo Inertia boxes like I have in the Star (RTLO 18718B) are just far too easy to shift to even think about bolting on the complexity of of the Computer shifted nightmare.

I have had a few old timers tell me that there is no way to shift these new trucks "Because they have electronic throttles" Hmmmmm Never noticed any issues with my Kitty.

Throttle is very stable and responds well to the slightest change up or down.
The air shifted boxes are a result of folks driving these things that dont understand the CONCEPT "If its making noise when your shifting, Ya aint doin it right"

I had a fellow that was running a tow truck try and tell me that there was no way that these large truck boxes could be shifted without "SOME grinding and banging" :eek:

I challeged that and took a $$$ C note away from him on a bet.

Climbed into "HIS" tow truck (New Pete) and having never driven it before, walked that sucker through all 18 gears up and down and it was quiet as a mouse and just as smooth a s silk.

He climbed into the command chair and it sounded like a rock crusher.

Gave him a 15 minute "coaching session" :smile5: and got him to understand what he was trying to do inside that gearbox and Poooof GEEEEEEEEEEEZ it got all quiet. HMMMMMMM whataya know about that.

If the kittens are not all running the same speed they bump into one another and a cat fight results. @#$%^&*() :eek:

I got 490,000 miles out of my first 18 speed in the star. (Heavy haul to boot)

Local Fuller shop tech was amazed that I had gotten more than 200K on a heavy hauler.


700R4

Yesss
The 700 does take some savvy to get it right.

The folks over at Transgo have beat there butts raw testing and designing fixes for just about everything to do with auto boxes.

I use their stuff exclusively

The 2-3 kit is great.

I will say that in the past, I have found that their recommendations for different setting were a tad conservative as far as shift feel.

NOT so on the 700R

The first 700 R I built I decided to set the thing on "KILL" (cause I wanted a nice firm shift)

OMG the 1-2 shift at anything other than very light throttle was brutal :eek:

Great tranny but I should have been a little less agressive on setting the 1-2 calibration.


The big issue with the 700R is that it is a very tiny gear box. (Internal parts such as clutches and things are just soo small compared to even a TH350 let alone a 400/4L80

The input drum is a POS IMHO.

The whole thing is just far too light for 4x4 application.

Built right with a whole supermarket cart full of good aftermarket "Fixemup" parts and they are fairly decent.

Still they are not as tough as their Big brothers.

A 400 out of the door at GM is 3 times the box even without a shift kit.

Add a cooler and a dash 2-3 shift kit and they are almost bullet proof.

The 700 will likely be my choice for my 91 Burb build simply because its not gonna get thrashed hard or used to tow anything much.

Just a daily driver with a lift and some big rubber to look cool is all I want.

Really sad when you are doing your own bench work and still have to spend $1500 to make one of these little critters work right.

GM tried to make them shift soo smooth and silky that they engineered them right into the trash heap.

Biggest area of troubles was/is the TV system
If the YV system is not upgraded and the issues fixed these boxes will fail, gauranteed.

The sunshell is probably the next most failure prone part.

Yessss the China made 5 pinion planet carriers are crap. There are some good 5 pinion units out there but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4 they are :eek:

Under standard use (no big power) the factory input drum with the 30 spline shaft will probably be OK
Better though to add the reinforcing ring to the hub area and be safe.

The roller locks and sprags are easy to swap out when the thing is apart so why not.

The other add ons (servo pistons, valves, and such just assure a good job)

The extra clutches are a must if the thing is gonna see any real use at all and again while its spread out on the bench, why not do it right.

The 2-4 band is a no brainer, your gonna replace it anyway so why not use a better one that wont burn up and or break.

The 2-4 band just gets the snot beat out of it on the 1-2 shift plus it holds a lot of pressure in 4th gear (OD)

The 13 vane pump delivers more oil and is far quieter than the old stock units.

Again your in there, why not.

Now all this said, if I was not worried about 80 MPH down the Highway, I would use a TH400 in a heartbeat.

The other side is the real low 1 st gear, couple that with low in the T case and the truck will crawl along very slow.


The 700R though not difficult to rebuild does require a few special tools.

The most important that I found are the seal installer tools used in the input drum.

A couple of these are impossible without tools (made mine in the lathe with some aluminum tubing)

The other seal tool I use is a piece of copper tube with loop of piano wire stuck in one end and the end smashed.
This little tool allows you to worry lip seals into drums without cutting, folding or otherwise fouling them up.

The spring compressors needed to get the drum apart can be improvised using a small hydraulic press and a little enginuity.

I happen to have a good selection of stuff from tranny days gone by that adapted well.

The tool used to align the front pump halves is nice but I improvise with a band clamp I made here in the shop.

Bushing drivers and front pump seal installers can be made from round steel or aluminum stock (need lathe) or these can be bought from the various tool suppliers $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :eek:

Easier and cheaper by far to make these tools if you can.


Transgo does make some very good kits.

One thing that they do well is to engineer stuff that the Backyard tech can do and do well.

I always laugh when a spacer plate is called to have a hole drilled out, then they tell you to rub the thing on the concrete floor to remove the burs :eek:

Sorry, Im just not gonna do that. Nice little deburing tool, file or a small countersink is so much more to my way of thinking.

Hell even sand paper is a buttload better than thrashing the spacer plate on the floor.

But the ideas are good and will work in a pinch.

The biggy though that many techs make a terrible mistake with is RAGS

Keep the RED, BLUE,GREEN or ???? cloth shop towels away from these things, especially the Valve body.

One little thread from a rag lost in the box WILL/CAN eventually find its way into a valve bore and cause a valve to stick.

GAME OVER.

Use low lint paper shop towels for these jobs.

Keep the rags away from auto tranny stuff. Believe me, I have had to diagnose and repair one once late on a Sunday eavening at my home shop for a customer.

Local chain store tranny shop had rebuilt a tranny in this fellows Big Olds wagon (late 70's)
He was out here from the east coast towing an airstream trailer.

The tranny took a POOP and he had it built.

A day later the thing failed to shift 2-3.

Sunday afternoon at 1 and the folks were heading out.

Took me until late in the eavening to find the trouble.

Damned thread from a RED shop towel had become lodged in the 2-3 shift valve train and locked it half way open/shut.

Luckily there was no damage just a real inconvenience.

Washed out the VB and all the valves,springs and such and put it back together.

Folks called me from Upstate NY the following weekend and all was fine. That old 455 with the TH400 had done its job well and was working fine.


One little thread from that Rag is all it took to stop the thing.

DONT USE CLOTH SHOP RAGS AT ALL IN THESE THINGS:nono:

Just a side note.

The folks that owned that car were in there late 60's early 70's
The parts store (open on Sunday) sent them to see me.

The fellow was astounded to be greeted by a 6 foot tall big blonde Gal in coveralls.


Hmmm He turned to his Missus after we discussed things and said.

"Mom, this big blonde bitch is gonna fix our car"

He turned to me and winked

Ya meet all kinds.

They had dinner with us that evening and we sent them on their way about 9 pm (Shop was at home)


Missy
 
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