High flow waterpump popping freeze plug

[Will L.]

I keep hearing the freeze plug(s) possibly popping out due to the increased flow of the high output (4 bolt or balanced- spin on) water pumps - please everyone figure this out and help kill that rumor:

What is it that will push out the freeze plug? PRESSURE. How much pressure in your system- radiator cap pressure. Put on a 30 psi cap on your radiator- you still will not push out the freeze plugs. Ever install a freeze plug by hand instead of a hammer- NO, Hercules. Swinging a hammer generates a lot more than 30 psi.

"But Will, system pressure plus force of 130 gpm pump..."
The water pump is an impeller pump not a positive pressure pump. Your oil pump has a pressure relief because it is a positive pressure pump. It doesn't matter if you have a 3000 gpm pump, your system will dump all pressure out the radiator cap light years before it could build enough pressure to move freeze plugs. Your radiator cap is the only pressure relief there is. Otherwise you could not stop the flow of the coolant with a thermostat. Bypass hose saving you? Pinch it off, start the engine and see if anything blows apart from the astronomical force of your water pump.

"But Will, Volume is inversely proportional to pressure, when you increase the volume in the same area..."
I get it Bill Nye, but your not the only guy to ace physics. Go measure how much pressure you can build with just the pump being driven by an external force (electric motor) when you are not creating pressure from running the engine and generating heat. Heck, spin that pump speed up so your moving 2 or 3 times that volume and let's see the pressure you generate.

Or anybody have an old engine laying around and an air compressor? Please, pressurize the cooling chambers with air, increasing the pressure 10 psi at a time. Let's watch the video, and see what pressure it takes to pop them freeze plugs.

If you lose a freeze plug it corroded, or was installed wrong.

 

[ak diesel driver]

Amen!!

 

[3500GMC]

I made couple plates to (deck and WP) to pressurize a block one side at a time to check a questionable cylinder on a 6.2 block.. I backed off at 75 psi. Found the leak, and it wasn't the core plugs..

 

[Big T]

100K miles later, my plugs are still there.

 

[Burning oil]

I put on my new water pump and first thing that happened was the block ballooned up and dented the hood, but the freeze plugs stayed in

 

[Big T]

I spent a year in space and grew 2". My wife said it was worth it.

 

[WarWagon]

Honestly it's a Fing joke! Just like the "Soot trap" Wiki entry for the 6.5 cats...

Can I run this HO pump with a single T-Stat, I mean what could go wrong? Standard answer no one believes is: yes, nothing. Tell them it will blow out the freeze plugs on the engine and after the laughter stops the HO pumps is bolted on with a single T-Stat.

Origins of the joke.

First off it's really a joke. We have blown the radiator cap clean off the radiator with no block heater to harm and the freeze plugs were fine. Also locked the HO water pump up, tried to drive it's shaft through the timing cover plate, cracked the intake manifold, wadded the fan up under the AC compressor, bent the compressor up, snapped the fan clutch cooling fins off in the suddenly thinner radiator, and blew up the oil cooler. Yeah hydraulic shock of squishing the radiator with an Elk at 50+MPH... This if anything could have pushed one out, but, the weak point is the radiator cap itself. The engine with the same freeze plugs is still running today. I may have reused the radiator cap.

Maybe something was lost in the translation below and they really meant the damn block heater. Had that blow out on a 6.2 in the early 90's and ruin the rings and crack a head.

Seriously I can't find the site from years ago I found when I blew up my first 6.5, yeah that long ago, that listed all the improvements to the GM production 6.5 and most common failures of the GM iron. It went on to say that the GM 6.5 is considered scrap in the PER world and the engine has undergone redesign known as the Optimizer. Regardless this article mentions one of the reasons for the dual T stat design was the single t-Stat couldn't flow enough to match the pump. So rather than design a huge non-standard T-Stat GM went to two. And it mentioned the freeze plug concerns with a HO pump and single T-Stat.

Water pumps are constant head pressure pumps nearly regardless of flow. The head pressure of the pumps may be different, but, flow of 1 or 2 T-stats will not matter. So I have been laughing over it ever since.

 

[Will L.]

Well, being as you are the first one to tell everyone that they should run the single, because it holds up to your "ehem" industrial loads in the fire pit... I figured you didn't buy into it. (Is it true you broke a steel ball with a rubber hammer?)

Idk if I mentioned before, little over a decade or two ago, I first learned of forums in via the 6.5 world. As you all can guess I jumped in and started running my mouth trying to help people. And of coarse the things I didn't know and asked about was usually something stupid or mixed up info I remembered from a different platform.

Having no clue what a troll was, and that half the people will run their mouth,err, fingers about a theory like its proven science when I knew the truth from experience. That got me upset seeing newbies waste their time and money on misinformation preached like the gospel. Later on hummer specific forums same junk, and teams of people that since I told the truth about "X" - when I would ask a question on the brakes or steering- I would catch hell. So in short order,I left.

From me looking for information on the hummer again, (like the crankshaft driven fan, etc) there are still tons of people out there that believe you can't go single, and many convinced only an optimizer or p400 can handle a spin on waterpump.

I understand when shop or store owners lying about things they don't sale so they can sale their inferior junk. Doesn't make it right, but I get it.

I probably should have put this in the rant section really, just frustrating is all. Hoping 1 person more will get it from this.

Probably should give up on cetane vs octane and carbon chains, huh?

 

[FellowTraveler]

I keep hearing the freeze plug(s) possibly popping out due to the increased flow of the high output (4 bolt or balanced- spin on) water pumps - please everyone figure this out and help kill that rumor:

What is it that will push out the freeze plug? PRESSURE. How much pressure in your system- radiator cap pressure. Put on a 30 psi cap on your radiator- you still will not push out the freeze plugs. Ever install a freeze plug by hand instead of a hammer- NO, Hercules. Swinging a hammer generates a lot more than 30 psi.

"But Will, system pressure plus force of 130 gpm pump..."
The water pump is an impeller pump not a positive pressure pump. Your oil pump has a pressure relief because it is a positive pressure pump. It doesn't matter if you have a 3000 gpm pump, your system will dump all pressure out the radiator cap light years before it could build enough pressure to move freeze plugs. Your radiator cap is the only pressure relief there is. Otherwise you could not stop the flow of the coolant with a thermostat. Bypass hose saving you? Pinch it off, start the engine and see if anything blows apart from the astronomical force of your water pump.

"But Will, Volume is inversely proportional to pressure, when you increase the volume in the same area..."
I get it Bill Nye, but your not the only guy to ace physics. Go measure how much pressure you can build with just the pump being driven by an external force (electric motor) when you are not creating pressure from running the engine and generating heat. Heck, spin that pump speed up so your moving 2 or 3 times that volume and let's see the pressure you generate.

Or anybody have an old engine laying around and an air compressor? Please, pressurize the cooling chambers with air, increasing the pressure 10 psi at a time. Let's watch the video, and see what pressure it takes to pop them freeze plugs.

If you lose a freeze plug it corroded, or was installed wrong.

The first I ever read about freeze plugs popping w/newer HO water pumps was a long time ago @ TDP it was alleged that someone in GM's R&D made the claim. It becomes a debate over what is better higher flow vs lower, higher volume vs lower then the type of coolant..............I opted for water-less and it performs better than EGW in my application.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Here is the link where the soft plugs were mentioned: http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/dualstats.htm

 

[WarWagon]

That's not the article I was referencing, but, the reasons given are the same. I wonder if the early orange Dexrot coolant was a cause for "If you lose a freeze plug it corroded" under the GM 100K 6.5 engine warranty as was attributed to the 130GPM pump?

Regardless after re-engineering a few GM cooling systems and seeing the in-depth people consulted over 6.5 running hot including Ron Davis Radiators... I do not take GM employees EX or otherwise word for it for GM cooling systems. Frankly GM did not have an understanding of how to cool a damn hard working diesel down (or some LS2 gas engines) and IMO still don't! Cooling includes the ability of heat to get out the restricted exhaust manifold, past a restrictive turbo, etc. It's not just the coolant wet items. Using a slow to respond Obsolete Spring Thermal fan clutches even on this century Duramax engines and testing with low profile trailers just further reinforces what a waste of money the Phoenix Proving grounds was to GM.

Don't even get me started on GM's inadequate R134A AC systems - having a lot to do with obsolete fan design and outdated FOT vs. better cooling expansion valve systems. Even a simple non-working stack seal design would cripple the AC system in hotter weather by feeding hot air over the top of the condenser.

I read the first HO water pumps did not correct the balance flow problem From Heath Diesel's research into HO pumps. So GM solved some of the cooling problems on their own in later model years you say? First it's not retroactive per GM leaving older owners with a garbage 6 blade/bolt fan clutch. Further the aftermarket has stepped up with other improvements not used on the 6.5 like the Duramax or other HD fan. Further aftermarket work in regards to cooling continues to this day from engine redesign known as the Optimizer/P400, low temp fan clutches, better modern/alternate design fan clutches, and others who brought better turbo info mainstream.

Regardless using New 4 bolt HO water pumps, a low temp KD fan clutch, 180 single t-stat, clean stack, and a Duramax or 9 blade steel fan I feel the engine can cool all the fuel a stock DS4 or DB2 can throw at the engine. Further cooling improvements are found by getting the GMx asthma attack off the engine so more heat can get out the exhaust with lower IAT's. IMO you choose slightly more idle air flow with the risk of rubbing the shroud, even years later, with the Duramax fan. The steel 9 blade fan with a low temp clutch does a good job for me towing. With the stall converter the 6.2 I have with the HO pump and single T-stat will sit at 3500 RPM when I hammer it till OD. Still has the freeze plugs shipped with it from the surplus military outfit - maybe original or maybe replaced when the Military rebuilt it. And in the spring/summer/fall I turn the valve and completely block the heater core flow to add even more theoretical pressure/issues...

The only cooling system problems I have had are leaks at the t-stat crossover to the head, hose clamps leaking, t-stat housing leaking, T-Stat failures, and heater core / radiator failures. I have to re-RTV the crossover on every few years - aluminum to cast iron interface does that... To be fair one aftermarket junk heater core went pop after a 0-75 WOT run, but, it was unusually corroded and was going to fail soon. IMO the cooling system surge pressure from the heat did more than the water pump, but, at failure every ounce counts.

So if you need the absolute maximum cooling for the wild injection pumps that are becoming available the dual stats may be the next step available. Just keep in mind our body style has a cooling stack airflow problem above all else.

(Yes I blow up Cummins industrial engines too. They just cost lots more to rebuild/replace.)

 

[Will L.]

This will sound very sidetracked for a minute but stick with me.

Las Vegas was the fastest growing area in the country for years and years. Gaming, mining, and construction drove the entire economy in Nevada, and the 2 later drove it in near by communities just out of state into Az & Ut. We gambling is obvious. Mining however, was not digging for gold. It was comprised mostly of open strip mining for type 2, and sand both used for new construction- roads, foundations, concrete, stucco,etc.

Look back at sales information, a disproportionately high number of trucks were sold in the Southwest region. The sales in southern Nevada vs Southern California. No big deal until you look at the population.
Some of the largest fleets comprised of pick ups in the country were in Vegas. Then of course, the private own trucks. How about the amount of fuel sold per capita?

How is this relevant? Because thousands of trucks were chewed up and spit out here. Do any reading, and you learn the two biggest operating cost of the fleet in the 1980s & 1990s is tires & a/c. Unless you ran diesel pickups, then cooling issues surpassed a/c repair costs. Especially GM and our beloved 6.5. That is why GM, Ford, Dodge all did testing in the southwest. Yuma, Yucca, and 2 in Whitman Az. Been there, got the tshirt.

I've mentioned before that I worked for large fleets, in oil/fuel companies, electrical companies, etc. Did the whole experiment on dozens of trucks at a time thing looking for solutions and being supplied with free engines everytime we blew one up. I wonder who would supply us with free crate longblocks? (And lots of part number- GMS. Properly GM Silicone- we refered to as Gooey Messy S...)

I am familiar with Craig- he was a good PR engineer, and a nice guy. I worked with a few other engineers from GM. They are a bunch of nice folks that sure did a lot of thinking and math. Not me I just removed parts, examined them, threw them in the recycling can, and wrote reports to engineers. I'm not saying they never pulled and examined waterpump a to look for cavitation.

The conference call I remember went something like- "what about people living in the rust belt? There core plugs will fail sooner from the rust" I, embarrassed to ask, had to say "what is a core plug?" Yet another term for soft, or freeze plug. Being embarrassed and sounding like a novice in front of that many industry changing people burned into my memory.

Anyways, three or four engineers argued back-and-forth on this conference call whether or not it could do it. I gave my opinion when asked, but they all talked about it, for some time after the call as I was told. Which led to me doing yet more experiments. But, I am not an engineer, or expert. I am just a guy that removed hundreds of water pumps were looking for evidence of cavitation pitting. I even drove them 8 (yes only 8 from hundreds) waterpumps of the 2 available to the public, and 2 experimental pumps down to Az. 2 of each type, 1 with red mud, 1 with green antifreeze.

I try to help the little guy with what I know for fact. When I try to share info I don't want to get some broke guy trying to feed his family to waste $ on something he can't afford. But when I share things like this, people want proof. Not on this forum- but they hold onto old statements by PR guys like it is gold.

Newsflash- GM does math on how many people die in firery crashes and estimate it's not worth putting in a solid plate of steel instead of a cheaper core punched one. Think they fix minor problems like overheating or pmd just because you want it? Really?

I don't have video of the warehouse where we ran hundreds of engines in rows for testing. I kept no old emails for "proof" incase in later needed it to help me sell or show off anything. I've always hated SEMA, and pass on the photo ops. Hell, my dad is my hero and I don't think I have 4 pictures of him. I just don't record my life for proof I was alive. I might have a letter, and a couple things tucked away for a rainy day in court.

When you do work for a major company, they have you sign a non disclosure document. So most of the time when someone speaks up it is at there economic peril. When certain employees have relatives that burn to death, information comes out and lawsuits are won against giants like GM. (Google if you don't get it).

Other times when mechanics realize it's weird that non disclosures are overly protective in specific detail, might just snag back that paperwork after it is signed and put into a pile of them. How many mechanics even no what a nondisclosure is, let alone recognize an unusual one.

Folks, run whatever crossover you can fit on your 6.5. Only run green antifreeze, you know the kind GM lost the rights to hold the chemical patents on before they patented mud, err, I mean other coolant types.

I know waterless coolants out perform water based coolants. I also know more than one person who lost body parts (even though they were wearing flame retardant suits) due to the coolant catching fire. I KNEW- not know- dead people burned up from coolant fires in streetcars.
Propane is a far cheaper and better working refrigerant than r12, r134a, or any other legal one available- it lasts longer too, and is less harmful to the environment. But the injury sustained is not worth the risk to me, or my family for the performance of either.

Gasoline is worse, but is designed- AT LEAST NOWDAYS- to be kept out of the passanger compartment even in the event of a crash. When my heater core failed, my wife had a burn on her foot that took a couple days to quit hurting- because it is in the passanger cabin.

FT, I won't tell you don't use it- your a big boy and its your call. Just be aware of possibilities is all.

Others on the GM LL antifreeze, I won't tell you don't run it, you're big boys and its your call. Just understand they know it's garbage but they make $ off it, not the other stuff. And they had, at least when I felt with them, engineers trying to build a better product even if it is a little less profitable in the short run- they just loose the argument to the $ sometimes.

 

[Will L.]

I started writing that last response about 1 1/2 hours ago and had to walk away for a bit. Came back,finished and posted it, without noticing Warwagon's last comment.

Think about this for a minute folks if you think I just put my head in the desert heat too much. War wagon made his living with his truck in the same area GM does all their testing, only his testing lasted longer than theirs. What does he have to gain by people not buying extra parts? Iirc, he delivered auto parts - if he was lying would it be in his interest to sell more parts like new dual stat crossovers? He has nothing to gain except feeling good for helping people with information on better cooling performance and saving money.

 

[Hink]

Been running several years with HO water pump and single crossover.
It took a 70 MPH run with a fifth wheel up a grade in a headwind to get it to start running too hot, but I did it.
All freeze plugs and both block heaters survived just fine.

 

[GM Guy]

Never had a freeze plug issue here.

Edit: I see I have missed out on some other conversation. Has there been posts deleted, or is the discussion spillover from another thread?

 

[FellowTraveler]

Perhaps, a conversation on installing an automatic fire suppression system under the hood/bonnet would do considering all normally used fluids as well as aftermarket or newer types of fluids and Freon replacements that are flammable under the hood/bonnet.

 

[Will L.]

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/700261564/Flats-racer-burned-after-record-run.html?pg=all

When Lynn showed me this project, they had 90% of it worked out. I offered a couple of suggestions I used when building Carroll Shelby's diesel Cobra, and a trick I figured out back with my twin turbo 1/2 ton. Other than that I was part of the fan club at work at Goodfellow's.

He is one of the guys I know re: waterless coolant injuries. Steam entered the cabin area, flash ignited, and according to one of the bonneville flat tech inspectors "the best fire suppression system I've ever seen" worked perfectly.

The money he poured into this car is austonishing. He had to have more in the fire suppression system than I have in my hummer-buying it, new optimizer from a dealership,the stacks of tires,my 12 bolt rims, and more.

Lynn's a smart man, and no fear- multiple plane wrecks, didn't slow him down, neither did loosing some fingers, and the rest of the burns he suffered. He sucked it up, healed up, and built a faster racer- breaking more records. I asked him when I went saw him "not going to stop you is it?" He said "have to die some how, might as well be going really really fast!" He knows everytime he can die and the glory is worth it to him.

Put in a $100,000 suppression system, seal up your cab air tight- getting rid of the heater core, of coarse. Put on your $1600 fire suit everytime you drive. And maybe you too could only loose some fingers, and burn up your face through your racing helmet. Because the fire still has to get hot enough to set off the detection system and flash out the oxygen before the flames go out.

Or, spend $3000 having a radiator custom built by Ron Davis. Run the spin on water pump set up. And save thousands with no added risk of burning to death like the kid whose passanger friend in So Cal.

What failed- the heater core sprung a leak. The passanger was smoking. Little burn marks in the headliner. Car is fine, the kids was an idiot for wearing street clothes that the company said exasperated the fire.

If you are in a race car where everything is double checked before the race. Ok. If you are Jay Leno with your own private mechanics working in classics that will never see a thousand miles a year- good choice.

If you drive a tired old truck, that does not get new cooling hoses every 20,000 miles, along with a new heater core each time. No. Fix the system, don't add 30 lbs of flammable liquid into your cabin.

Propane in the a/c installed by a certified shop is a felony for a reason. But it is only a bit over 1 lbs, and has less total btu than waterless in your whole system.

How come 6.5 engines can be used in other platforms without overheating? Even when they didn't have the corrective water pump which fixes 90-95% of the problem. Larger aluminum radiators. Unless you can afford copper.

 

[FellowTraveler]

No doubt there are vehicle fires however little or no data exist on the causes as it relates to water-less coolant and organic propane/isobutane compounds R134a replacement compounds, why is that?

Can't find any data on water-less coolants being more dangerous than most of the other fluids used within vehicle's in America or globally. Water-less coolants are making a dent in the EGW industry.

As the HVAC industry goes in America those with patents on R134a have gone bats over organic compounds cutting into their profits using the fire argument however R134a burns too and lobbyist abound to protect the patent owners so usurped powers pass legislation directed at the HVAC industry to protect the patent holders as propane/isobutane "R134a replacement" is sold and installed by 100's of millions around American and abroad.

The global and domestic HVAC industry uses propane, ammonia and other more dangerous mixtures in commercial and residential applications here and abroad then there is all the propane used for refrigeration, fuel and cooking within motor vehicles, trucks, buses RV's and boats for a long time now.

 

[Husker6.5]

When's the last time a house hit another house at 70 mph (hurricanes excepted), or hit a deer or took on a telephone pole? What may be acceptable industry standard in one situation may be a fool's ticket to heaven in another. Just saying.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Houses burn up all the time and it's contents burns along with it to include any freon and/or organic freon substitutes in the HVAC unit (s) do we just blame the freon and/or organic freon substitutes, or?