For those wondering about studs...

[mitchedo]

For those who might be considering studs...

I've had my engine at the shop for a month or so. I've been trying to find out how much studs would cost. Well I got a partial answer today. The guy at ARP said the measurements for my head studs are different than the ones in the 6.2 stud kit that's available for ~$160. I don't know what's different, but he gave me a part number and a price. $439 for 34 studs, washers, and nuts. Part number for the studs is au4.900-1lb

I had a fax in to ARP's custom order dept for the mains, which would have to be custom, but I just sent another fax to cancel my request.

$800 for studs is just too steep for my blood. I can't imagine the custom studs being less than $400 for the 20 of them.

I asked the shop to put my engine together with the old main bolts and the new head bolts I already gave them.

$800 for bolts. :mad2:

I'd rather buy myself a CMP Garand and a few hundred rounds of ammo, thank you very much.

 

[chrisk1500]

I used the 6.2 ARP kit for my heads.....as per Bill's advice....no problems as of yet...

 

[midniteplowboyy]

I used the 6.2 ones also, there the same as far as I know.

 

[davo727]

Here the post by ratman with all the ARP #s for his main studs- He said it was $240 for the main studs . And I had heard everybody uses the 6.2 head kit on the 6.5s - They are about $180 from summit.

http://dieseltowingresource.com/showpost.php?p=43271&postcount=14

 

[mitchedo]

Does anyone have the length of one of those 6.2 studs? I know Bill Heath uses them, but according to the guy at ARP, the measurements I sent were different.

$240 + $180 was what I had figured it would cost, based on Ratman's info and the 6.2 kit. ...and Ratman's engine was different than mine. I gots me one of those magic 2003 Navistar blocks. At least that didn't crack.

Here are the lengths I needed, and what they had. Keep in mind, I sent their order sheet filled in with measurements of the holes, not the old bolts. Too long might have worked, but I'd worry there wouldn't be enough threads cut. They're too flippin' expensive anyway.

Main inners = 5.000 inch stud. ARP has 4.900
12mm Main outers = 3.816 inch stud. ARP has nothing this size or close to it.
10mm main outers = 3.829 inch stud. ARP has one at 3.750
heads = 4.900 inch stud. ARP has one at 4.900 (and $12.00+ each with nut and washer)

Ratman bought these:
Inners: AU4.600-KB (10 pcs) that's 4.6" if I read the part number corrrectly
Outers: AU3.965-KB (10 pcs) that's 3.965"

The price I got was about $7.65 for each head stud, then about $5.00 for a washer and nut for each one. Summit's price is over $10.00 for just each stud.

 

[Jasonsmack]

6.2 head studs are 4.750"

.150" longer studs are not worth the extra $259.00. There is no way that a 2003 block is different enough to need that little wee bit longer length of head stud.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

If you are worried about the bottom end, get a local shop to install the Lock N Stitch inserts and you will be all set.

For most applications the standard bolts are fine for the heads.

I am not even a fan of TTY bolts But if torqued properly do not present a real issue.

Best

MGW

 

[mitchedo]

Well, I was supposed to go pick up my assembled long block tomorrow, but the shop said at least one of the main bolts was "soft" and wouldn't torque properly, so they ordered new bolts through the dealer. They have to come in from Mississippi, so no engine for me this week. Looks like those bottom bolts might be TTY after all. They were REALLY tight when I undid them. Perhaps they got over-torqued at the GEP assembly line. That would go along with the bad machining on the main bore.

Bolts are about $80 compared to ~$400 for custom studs.

I guess I could have had the shop install the Lock-n-stitch inserts, but my block ain't cracked, and it's the magic Navistar casting, so it ain't gonna crack. Or so I tell myself.

 

[mitchedo]

6.2 head studs are 4.750"

.150" longer studs are not worth the extra $259.00. There is no way that a 2003 block is different enough to need that little wee bit longer length of head stud.

I have to go with the machinist's measurements. I don't have the proper tools to measure them. Maybe the head bolts are too short too.

Oh well, if it blows up, I'll put a 454 in it. At least that will hold together. ...and my tow rating will go from 8000 to 10,000 pounds.

 

[Jasonsmack]

Well that was alot of hot air. I know this might offend some people but I do not think it is fair for other people reading this and considering the use of studs to be discouraged by this thread.

Everybody here pretty much agrees and knows that the ARP head studs work better than the stock TTY bolts. The 6.2 kit works on the 6.5 without question. If somebody is supplying heads that require a longer head stud, they had better be offering a longer bolt set with the heads when they sell them to you. I can go to the machine shop and measure a half a dozen different casting numbers from 6.2 and 6.5 engines and they will be the same head bolt hole depth. The new offshore castings are no different. The Felpro part number for a head bolt set is FELES72724. Take that number and check it for the applications it works on. Better yet: Somebody on the auction site has a very good application list attached to item # 270298311625 .

Anybody that thinks 20 main studs, washers and nuts are going to be $400 from ARP is making a completely false statement. I bought enough for three engines from them last year and the bill for all three was less than $400 - I think it was actually $270 but I would have to go to the accountants to check on that for sure. The trick is to use studs, nuts and washers that they already have built for another application.

All you need to do your own measuring is a caliper. Harbor Freight Tools has them on sale right now for $10. They have four stores in Utah and they do mail and internet orders as well. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257

 

[mitchedo]

I was just offering up an experienced engine rebuilder's measurements with what I found when I submitted the ARP special-order forms (I can post them if anyone is interested). I had no idea what size stud the 6.2 stud kit has, only that ARP said they are not made for the 6.5. Would they work? ...probably so, but the ARP rep told me they would not. Maybe he was just a lousy ARP rep. Would they be better than the TTY bolts? Now that I know they're only .15" shorter, they likely engage more threads in the block than the TTY bolts. ...and so does anyone else reading this thread.

Here are the prices I got from ARP for the head studs:
Au4.900-1lb = $7.62 each, retail =$10.24
200-8500 washer = $0.94 each
300-8307 nut = $4.36 each

When you add those up and multiply by 34, you get $439.28 -- a far cry from the price of the 6.2 set.
If the custom-made main studs are the exact same price, that comes to $258.40.

My $400 "best guess" for head and main studs was a stretch for my budget, and when it went over that, I was most disappointed.

I already own a Harbor Freight caliper. Have had it about 10 years. My engine is 50 miles away, so I'm relying on the machinist's measurements. He measured to the nearest half millimeter.

Hot air? Perhaps, but I think this is an informative thread. I haven't seen anyone else post measurements before. Will I really put in a 454 if this engine lets go? ...probably not, but it is a far more reliable engine and much easier to get parts for. I have a 2003 engine in the machine shop with 49,000 miles on it. It's supposed to be one of the good ones. GEP had been building them for about 3 years by the time mine rolled off the line, and they still managed to screw up the main bore. 'Scuse me for being a little unhappy with the 6.5 for a minute there.

I wish I'd gone ahead and gotten the quote for mains. Maybe I'll try to call ARP today and see what I can find out.

Meanwhile, after a week's delay for this stud chase, my engine should be done next week. Unfortunately, the nice warm weather should be done too, but that's my fault for procrastinating so long.

Oh, and Jasonsmack. Thanks for popping in to set things in perspective. The more info folks have, the better decisions they'll be able to make. If I had had all the information in this thread 3 days ago, perhaps I'd have gone with the 6.2 kit. I did not, so I'm using the bolts I bought when I first set out to change my head gaskets so many months ago.

I sprung for the Fluidampr because of the information on this site (and the Place). Maybe someone will be more comfortable with the 6.2 head stud kit because of this thread. Me? I have $400 extra to spend on Christmas, I suppose, and a slightly weaker engine for it.

Oh, and don't forget my engine had at least one over-stretched main bolt, so folks rebuilding their bottom ends will want to keep that in mind -- especially with the 55-55+90* torque specs for the bolts. ...just like the TTY head bolts.