chevyCowboy
I might be crazy but i ain't dumb
syncros require that you take apart the main shaft.
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Clutch opinions/experiences
- Thread starter vdb11
- Start date
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
any special tools required for that?
tanman_2006
Just a farm kid...
Snap ring pliers are the biggest tool used. Like said earlier a press is required to get some bearings and gears off. I had to heat and cut a few bearings out.
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
Hmm okay hopefully I can find someone around here with a press...
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
Ok everyone quick update for you:
I have good news and bad news.
The clutch arrived and low and behold, a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch is merely a LUK clutch with the weights added to the pressure plate and one side of the stock organic LUK disc taken off and Centerforce's ceramic material with a gold plated backing riveted on. To be honest, I feel kinda ripped off, but it is what I had when I needed to finish the project.
That being said, I love the clutch. Extremely easy pedal, smooth engagement, seems to hold strong, albeit the ceramic is a little loud on the flywheel.
I also got a throwout from the local dealer, looked way better than the one I had, as well as a pivot ball stud. I also got a bronze pilot bushing from Napa. Overall, I am very pleased with the clutch although I could have probably just gotten a much cheaper Luk and had the same results.
Now here is the issue, and my need for more help!
Rebuilding the tranny was not too bad. For someone that NEVER gets a project done when they plan to, I actually finished this project in the week I had off. A local shop had a press and he let me use it to remove the bearings. Like you said tanman, I ended up cutting some off.
I bought a cheap rebuild kit from the big auction site which was sourced from the Transparts warehouse which included the fiber lined synchros and bearings.
Here is the problem: Although the bearing grind seems to have disappeared, I have A LOT of gear rattle, especially when it warms up. It rattles at idle noticeably, and it really seems to rattle/groan/growl in 3rd and 4th, at low rpms, although this is probably more because its the most torque at the lowest rpm (besides 5th which I am never in unless I am moving fast enough to not hear sounds). Here are some important things that I want to point out and maybe you guys can come up with some suggestions:
1) Definitely coming from inside the gear case
2) Replaced input bearing, however, I DID NOT check endplay in the mainshaft or anything for that matter. I simply reinstalled the existing shims (two for the main, two for the counter)
3) DID NOT replace the input shaft, although it has grooves in it from a damaged bearing. I used a pilot bushing, see next point.
4) Pilot bushing was TIGHT on input shaft. I had hit the input a few times before I purchased a good puller to remove the input bearing, which mushroomed the end a little bit. My dad when he was helping me smoothed this out some with a file and pipe paper because with the first attempt to install the tranny we could not get it pushed into the bushing.
5) The second attempt to install the tranny yielded the same result, however with only the length of the bushing still to push in, we were able to pull the tranny to the bellhousing using the bolts, with NO SIGNIFICANT force. A little effort with a regular wrench and the bolts pulled the tranny right in. I know, not the way to do it!
6) When installing the fifth gear nut, I used an impact with a socket I customized from a chain store. I locked the tranny in two gears at once to do this and torqued it as far as our impact would move it (130 ish psi).
7) When assembling the mainshaft assembly, I had the WRONG oil, thanks to the dealer. It was synchromesh. Not knowing until after I had the mainshaft together, I used this oil to moisten the new fiber lined synchros as I was putting it together. After realizing the problem, I went back to the dealer, returned the oil I did not use, and purchased the right (expensive) fluid, which it is currently filled with.
8)The noise goes away when I depress the clutch pedal.
9) I had a shop manual for my truck, which has an nv4500 section in front of me the whole time. I do not think I assembled the mainshaft incorrectly as I had the diagram in front of me the whole time and the synchros are angle and notched to only allow assembly one way.
10) I am 95% sure it is not the clutch.
11) Almost forgot, I did chip 2 or 3 teeth on the large gear at the end of the mainshaft using a puller before using a press. It is the very last gear on which the rear mainshaft bearing is installed. It is the reverse gear (cut opposite the rest). This is the only gear that has damage.
Please read through these things. Is there anything that jumps out at you? I am leaning towards input shaft in pilot bushing or not checking the endplay (it seemed tight but that means nothing). Please, any and all thoughts are welcome. It looks like I may be removing the trans again when christmas break comes around.....
Thank you everyone for your help so far!
I have good news and bad news.
The clutch arrived and low and behold, a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch is merely a LUK clutch with the weights added to the pressure plate and one side of the stock organic LUK disc taken off and Centerforce's ceramic material with a gold plated backing riveted on. To be honest, I feel kinda ripped off, but it is what I had when I needed to finish the project.
That being said, I love the clutch. Extremely easy pedal, smooth engagement, seems to hold strong, albeit the ceramic is a little loud on the flywheel.
I also got a throwout from the local dealer, looked way better than the one I had, as well as a pivot ball stud. I also got a bronze pilot bushing from Napa. Overall, I am very pleased with the clutch although I could have probably just gotten a much cheaper Luk and had the same results.
Now here is the issue, and my need for more help!
Rebuilding the tranny was not too bad. For someone that NEVER gets a project done when they plan to, I actually finished this project in the week I had off. A local shop had a press and he let me use it to remove the bearings. Like you said tanman, I ended up cutting some off.
I bought a cheap rebuild kit from the big auction site which was sourced from the Transparts warehouse which included the fiber lined synchros and bearings.
Here is the problem: Although the bearing grind seems to have disappeared, I have A LOT of gear rattle, especially when it warms up. It rattles at idle noticeably, and it really seems to rattle/groan/growl in 3rd and 4th, at low rpms, although this is probably more because its the most torque at the lowest rpm (besides 5th which I am never in unless I am moving fast enough to not hear sounds). Here are some important things that I want to point out and maybe you guys can come up with some suggestions:
1) Definitely coming from inside the gear case
2) Replaced input bearing, however, I DID NOT check endplay in the mainshaft or anything for that matter. I simply reinstalled the existing shims (two for the main, two for the counter)
3) DID NOT replace the input shaft, although it has grooves in it from a damaged bearing. I used a pilot bushing, see next point.
4) Pilot bushing was TIGHT on input shaft. I had hit the input a few times before I purchased a good puller to remove the input bearing, which mushroomed the end a little bit. My dad when he was helping me smoothed this out some with a file and pipe paper because with the first attempt to install the tranny we could not get it pushed into the bushing.
5) The second attempt to install the tranny yielded the same result, however with only the length of the bushing still to push in, we were able to pull the tranny to the bellhousing using the bolts, with NO SIGNIFICANT force. A little effort with a regular wrench and the bolts pulled the tranny right in. I know, not the way to do it!
6) When installing the fifth gear nut, I used an impact with a socket I customized from a chain store. I locked the tranny in two gears at once to do this and torqued it as far as our impact would move it (130 ish psi).
7) When assembling the mainshaft assembly, I had the WRONG oil, thanks to the dealer. It was synchromesh. Not knowing until after I had the mainshaft together, I used this oil to moisten the new fiber lined synchros as I was putting it together. After realizing the problem, I went back to the dealer, returned the oil I did not use, and purchased the right (expensive) fluid, which it is currently filled with.
8)The noise goes away when I depress the clutch pedal.
9) I had a shop manual for my truck, which has an nv4500 section in front of me the whole time. I do not think I assembled the mainshaft incorrectly as I had the diagram in front of me the whole time and the synchros are angle and notched to only allow assembly one way.
10) I am 95% sure it is not the clutch.
11) Almost forgot, I did chip 2 or 3 teeth on the large gear at the end of the mainshaft using a puller before using a press. It is the very last gear on which the rear mainshaft bearing is installed. It is the reverse gear (cut opposite the rest). This is the only gear that has damage.
Please read through these things. Is there anything that jumps out at you? I am leaning towards input shaft in pilot bushing or not checking the endplay (it seemed tight but that means nothing). Please, any and all thoughts are welcome. It looks like I may be removing the trans again when christmas break comes around.....
Thank you everyone for your help so far!
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
so what makes you think it's a rebadged LUK clutch?
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
Ha it has LUK stamped in both the pressure plate and the center section of the disk. If it wasn't wouldn't have had any idea.
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
You think that could be the cause of the chatter? I thought if one of the shafts is too tight or too loose it could cause chatter. Unfortunately, i have no way of doing that accurately, because the spec is like .002 to .006 inch.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
I don't recall mine saying that. Maybe they've cheaped out like everyone else.
tanman_2006
Just a farm kid...
My 94 had a LUK and it groaned just fine for 50K lol. It was more of an abuse problem that led to its death.
The groan doesnt sound like a mainshaft assembly problem other than end play might be off. Mine was on the tight end of specs with the original shims but i doubt every tranny will see those results.
Incorrect oil on the synchro material then being drowned in the correct oil will likely not be an issue
The groan doesnt sound like a mainshaft assembly problem other than end play might be off. Mine was on the tight end of specs with the original shims but i doubt every tranny will see those results.
Incorrect oil on the synchro material then being drowned in the correct oil will likely not be an issue
schiker
Well-Known Member
They told me the center section and PP were cleaned up and painted LUK components and the friction material was center force. I wonder if Luk actually makes them or they are a sub supplier for center force???
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
ak, you could be right. I feel like I definitely overpaid for the clutch, but I really can't complain because it is 100x better than the one I had before so thats all that matters to me, as long as it lasts.
I thought the same about the fluid tanman.
What concerns me is that it did not make this noise before the rebuild. The noise it made before the rebuild was like a bearing grinding noise which was loud at low rpms and disappeared after 1700 rpm. I was a more high pitched that didn't sound like gears and was more noticeable with the windows down. That noise appears to have gone.
However, this noise is definitely internal to the case. Since it is cold I don't have the windows down, but it is loud in the cab, like it is more within the case. It is lower pitched and sounds like dry gears kind of. Like a rattle. Disappears when the clutch is depressed.
Should the pilot bushing be as tight as it was? The old input shaft was used, which is somewhat damaged. Also, I did not mark the input bearing retainer to put it in the same way like the manual says to do. I may have to get a stethoscope or something. It *seems* like its coming from the front end of the trans.
I thought the same about the fluid tanman.
What concerns me is that it did not make this noise before the rebuild. The noise it made before the rebuild was like a bearing grinding noise which was loud at low rpms and disappeared after 1700 rpm. I was a more high pitched that didn't sound like gears and was more noticeable with the windows down. That noise appears to have gone.
However, this noise is definitely internal to the case. Since it is cold I don't have the windows down, but it is loud in the cab, like it is more within the case. It is lower pitched and sounds like dry gears kind of. Like a rattle. Disappears when the clutch is depressed.
Should the pilot bushing be as tight as it was? The old input shaft was used, which is somewhat damaged. Also, I did not mark the input bearing retainer to put it in the same way like the manual says to do. I may have to get a stethoscope or something. It *seems* like its coming from the front end of the trans.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
does the noise disappear if you just slightly press on the clutch?
vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
I will have to get back to you on that one, I did not notice.
Although I am about 95% sure its not clutch related.
Although I am about 95% sure its not clutch related.