• Welcome to The Truck Stop! We see you haven't REGISTERED yet.

    Your truck knowledge is missing!
    • Registration is FREE , all we need is your birthday and email. (We don't share ANY data with ANYONE)
    • We have tons of knowledge here for your diesel truck!
    • Post your own topics and reply to existing threads to help others out!
    • NO ADS! The site is fully functional and ad free!
    CLICK HERE TO REGISTER!

    Problems registering? Click here to contact us!

    Already registered, but need a PASSWORD RESET? CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD!

Charge air cooler with minimal bother

Missy Good Wench

Missy Good Wench

Wild Blonde from Cloud Mt
Messages
1,683
Reaction score
65
Location
Newberg Oregon
Hey all

Found this tid bit online. http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=248

Now this would or could be a sweet and simple way to reduce those nasty EGT's we all talk about limiting.

The kit comes with most everything needed.

You would have to modify the air hat by cutting and welding it back together so that a pipe from the turbo could snake by and to the cooler.

Run a custom formed pipe from the cooler back around and to the manifold top hat and its a done deal,

Hooking up the heat exchanger, pump and other goodies would be a snap. Simply follow the Manuf's intructions for the original application and modify things a little here and there to make it all fit the trucks/Burbs.

Other than doing the rewelding on the Top Hat its mostly basic wrenching and maybe a little fabricating to come up with abracket to hold the cooler unit.

This could be an easy install with the ability to put your original top hat back on and remove the cooler if desired ????


Such a deal

And the Paxton naemhas been around forever in the Hot rod business.


MGW
 
The only issue is getting a pipe from the turbo hooked up and past the entry into the top hat and then back around and in again.

Several ways to do the task but my thoughts are to keep the job simple and use as much existing parts as possible.

A fresh top hat adapter that bolts to the stock intake manifold could be used too.

That would keep the piping from the turbo to the manifold very short.

Just some thoughts.

When ya have a lathe and a mill sitting in the corner along with a tig welder the possibilities are limitless. :D

MGW
 
Get an A-Team Turbo and you wont need the intercooler. I spent 400 dollars on a self made intercooler, you can get a new turbo for 339. dollars more and get 1 to three miles to the gallon better fuel mileage and lower EGT temps and IAT temps. Just my two cents worth. Course I am biased :D but I have been running an A-Team Turbo for the last 25,000 miles. It does make a big difference.
 
Slim Shady said:
Get an A-Team Turbo and you wont need the intercooler. I spent 400 dollars on a self made intercooler, you can get a new turbo for 339. dollars more and get 1 to three miles to the gallon better fuel mileage and lower EGT temps and IAT temps. Just my two cents worth. Course I am biased :D but I have been running an A-Team Turbo for the last 25,000 miles. It does make a big difference.
Click to expand...

Hey Slim,

What kind of EGT and IAT reductions have you seen when using ATT?

-Rob :)
 
TurboTahoe said:
Hey Slim,

What kind of EGT and IAT reductions have you seen when using ATT?

-Rob :)
Click to expand...

Rob check out post 212 here http://dieseltowingresource.com/showthread.php?t=2015&highlight=page=15&page=15 Slim got his 1st ride in a ATT & auto trans equipped 6.5 this past weekend, no IC, no defuel all way to 103 mph before we had to back out due to traffic, 16 psi boost, 950 EGT, 18psi turbo drive pressure , I din't have scanner hooked up to read the IAT but I'm sure from past dives it was not very high. My normal cruising speed is 70-75 mph, IAT 140-170, 550-600 EGT. Found another post in replacement turbo thread with more data in it post 456 here: http://dieseltowingresource.com/showthread.php?t=2015&highlight=removed&page=31
 
Last edited:
I think that the point Shady and Tim were making was that you could get better boost/higher volume and eliminate the need for a charge air cooler. If we can get better volumes at lower IAT, then the charger is not needed.

In theory, this sounds better. I've always been a little wary of ATT because it has no wastegate, therefore there is no control over boost at all. In my mind (I'm no expert), I usually want SOME form of control over boost pressure. However, Slim and Tim are saying that the ATT is perfect for the 6.5 and produces a boost curve that is ideal for our trucks. You'll have no excess plumbing, no water leaks to be concerned with (e.g. air/water cooler) and eliminate the wastegate controls, no problems with "overboost" and so it does sound tempting.

-Rob :)
 
I wonder if you could increase the performance of the Paxton kit by upgrading the size of the cooler to an H7b:

LNG-H7B.jpg


(as an alternative)
 
Rob go for the ATT you won't regret it, I just took Jaimie Avant from Diesel Depot for a ride in mine about 4 hours ago I think he liked the ride, ATT & WMI is all you need and not much WMI flow
 
Turbine Doc said:
Rob go for the ATT you won't regret it, I just took Jaimie Avant from Diesel Depot for a ride in mine about 4 hours ago I think he liked the ride, ATT & WMI is all you need and not much WMI flow
Click to expand...

Hey Tim,

Thanks for the nudge. :) I always appreciate when you spend my money. Seriously, I just need to save up enough dough!

-Rob :)
 
I like my water meth kit. I rarely tow and for the odd time I do (vacations) it works well. Besides up here in BC the hottest it ever hit was 33.9 C and for our southern friends that is 93 F. I don't even wanna begin to imagine what 94 F is. Ed
 
There are a few threads out there that indicate an IAT right around 150 F is particularly good or efficient for the IDI 6.5. Does anybody have any data/documentation on that?

I could see that possibly being the case for steady state hwy cruise fuel economy. For power production, it doesn't agree very well with what's seen on the dyno on other IDI's like the 6.9/7.3 Fords.

Fitting a well designed IC on our trucks presents some challenges & has often forced some design compromises. For the common hanging ATA 6.5 installs, a plumbing diameter of 2.5" is often used. If the 6.5 is modified & seeing much higher mass airflow than stock, 2.5" is on the small size & at peak airflows, there's probably significant pressure drop associated w/ the plumbing restriction & bends. The math suggests 2.75" or 3.00" is better sized for say a ~ 300 hp effort. Can anybody on the forum confirm what the 6.6 Duramax IC plumbing diameter is?

The second compromise is the hanging ATA location typically has no ducting around it, so when rolling down the road, ambient air can easily "go around" the core. This is particularly relevant in the towing application, when the engine is under high boost/high load for minutes at a time. At that point, the IC aluminum is no longer exchanging any charge heat by simply being a chunk of Al acting as a heat sink. After the first slug of heat is simply dumped into the Al, it becomes all about the IC's rate of heat exchange w/ ambient air.

IAT should be considered under the conditions you're most concerned with. IAT's after a quick run to 100 mph & IAT's after pulling hard uphill for a few minutes are 2 different situations.

These aren't necessarily easy issues to fix, but they should be understood when considering an IC.

Here are a couple links to good information when considering charge air cooling. The "All about Intercooling" can be downloaded from the Turbonetics/Spearco website. Considering it's written by Spearco, there doesn't appear to be much vendor bias, etc. Just good solid IC design/engineering info.

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/all_about_intercooling

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html

A friend that's working w/ the Holset HE351ve VGT turbo also installed a water to air IC. His install has the WTA heat shedding radiator in the bumper btwn frame rail mounts. He's done some IAT data acquisition w/o & w/ IC & collected a statistically significant # of data points (4000 & 6000 on the logs I've seen). This was a few months back when outdoor temps made charge air cooling more relevant. I'll check w/ him to see if it would be OK to post that data.
 
SmithvilleD said:
There are a few threads out there that indicate an IAT right around 150 F is particularly good or efficient for the IDI 6.5. Does anybody have any data/documentation on that?


Fitting a well designed IC on our trucks presents some challenges & has often forced some design compromises. For the common hanging ATA 6.5 installs, a plumbing diameter of 2.5" is often used. If the 6.5 is modified & seeing much higher mass airflow than stock, 2.5" is on the small size & at peak airflows, there's probably significant pressure drop associated w/ the plumbing restriction & bends. The math suggests 2.75" or 3.00" is better sized for say a ~ 300 hp effort. Can anybody on the forum confirm what the 6.6 Duramax IC plumbing diameter is?

The second compromise is the hanging ATA location typically has no ducting around it, so when rolling down the road, ambient air can easily "go around" the core. This is particularly relevant in the towing application, when the engine is under high boost/high load for minutes at a time. At that point, the IC aluminum is no longer exchanging any charge heat by simply being a chunk of Al acting as a heat sink. After the first slug of heat is simply dumped into the Al, it becomes all about the IC's rate of heat exchange w/ ambient air.

IAT should be considered under the conditions you're most concerned with. IAT's after a quick run to 100 mph & IAT's after pulling hard uphill for a few minutes are 2 different situations.

These aren't necessarily easy issues to fix, but they should be understood when considering an IC.

Here are a couple links to good information when considering charge air cooling. The "All about Intercooling" can be downloaded from the Turbonetics/Spearco website. Considering it's written by Spearco, there doesn't appear to be much vendor bias, etc. Just good solid IC design/engineering info.

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/all_about_intercooling

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html

A friend that's working w/ the Holset HE351ve VGT turbo also installed a water to air IC. His install has the WTA heat shedding radiator in the bumper btwn frame rail mounts. He's done some IAT data acquisition w/o & w/ IC & collected a statistically significant # of data points (4000 & 6000 on the logs I've seen). This was a few months back when outdoor temps made charge air cooling more relevant. I'll check w/ him to see if it would be OK to post that data.
Click to expand...

Good links SD :thumbsup:

The 150F you see posted as ideal temp for IAT, may have come from myself on an old forum I was on, or others who posted it from same place I got info from but desired rather than argue the point over the science & math in a fourm context, asked to not be identified. The folks I talked to had some insight with the Ricardo Engineering who designed our IDI combustion chamber. (Anybody interested can PM me and I'll ask if they would be willing to discuss with you and share their contact info, but they are a well educated/experienced 6.5er)

As for the hanging ATA, the kit I ran was a Spearco that Kennedy used to sell that came as a drop ship from Turbonetics I don't know the math behind it, so I'm just posting the results as science & math often can not explain real world results.

As you know we use math & science to model for a result and make the best SWAG assumptions/conclusions we can, they are often spot on but not always; but it's a model just the same, sort of like the nimrods (excuse me scientists) that swear per their model we are in a global warming phase, yet real world happenings this winter globally would challenge the model/modeleers factual data they presented to the world.

With that said, at any given temp with my ATA the intake air temp (IAT/charge air) was never more that 30F outside air temp (OAT) at any boost level or weight towed of up to to 18K on 100F OAT days so the ducting or lack of it was not an issue, possibly tightness between frame rails created sort of a ducted path for airflow, there was a rubber dam at base of the IC to route air into the IC.

2" id was plumbing that came with the kit I maintined this id with additional plumbing I had to do to "shoehorn" the IC into the K1500s smaller frame work, this was with my GM-8 and I kept bends & radius to minimum where I could.

I removed my ATA as the ATT does not need it IMO, WMI will be sufficient and far less $$$ than a IC kit, and maybe just a mental thing my part but felt acceleration improved without the IC in the loop, heaviest weight thus far with my ATT has been 7K and no IC but I could see where WMI with hotter day or heavier load would be beneficial, with my TDO7 I've towed 18K with ATA it's results 30F delta OAT over IAT.

The ATT in my burb does well as is in mostly stock form, since it's paid for; that will probably be where the IC off the truck will go, I did defuel on IAT once with it, but that was 13 psi boost @ 111 mph on a 95F day when I was doing some acceleration/performance tests.

From my testing seems that once you go over 10 psi with either the GM-8, the TD07, or ATT the IAT really climbs, starting to slope gradually to about 11.5 psi stabilizing to 225F or so on a hot day then above that IAT, the slope peak starts going straight up until you hit IAT defuel around 275F over X sec, I've not established that fully I just saw/knew what happens when it happend.

IIRC member BuckBuck pulling 30K loads hauling pipe for oil fields in S. Louisana ATT equipped 4.56 geared flatbed truck no ATA/WMI, no reflash and could not be more pleased 25 mph on hills max with his GM-8, 50-60 mph sustainable with his ATT he's been a MIA poster for a while if anybody has his # give him a shout so he can add comment.
 
Last edited:
Again, I could see 150 F IAT as possibly the most fuel efficient. I've seen too many peak power increases on IDI Fords w/ IC's that resulted in IAT's closer to 100 F, to believe 150 is ideal for max power. Believe as long as the charge density is being increased, max power won't drop off until IAT's are cool enough to significantly hurt fuel/air interaction at in cyl compressed temps. With warm cyl walls/pre-cups, that interaction doesn't seem to be hurt much at IAT's around 100. The stock turbo'd/no IC'd trucks do feel like they're getting stronger in mild winter temps when the hwy cruise IAT is just under 100 F.

The commecial IC kit using 2" plumbing suggests Spearco was thinking 200-225 hp 6.5, which probably wasn't unreasonable for many 6.5'rs (particularly at the time when it was designed). The IC kit that More Power's truck/article showed many years back was a bit undersized compared to what's more easily available now also.

This has me thinking I'll weld in a few ports in the IC plumbing (comp outlet, IC in & out, & intake hat) so I can measure differential pressure across the IC, & pre/post bends. Without knowing the differential pressures, it's tough to really know what's posing a restriction. Push 40 lbs/min thru a 2" pipe w/ any bends in it & there's gonna be some pressure loss/

Before foreign made IC's became so commonplace, the cores cost so much more. The quality of most of the inexpensive foreign made IC's is really quite good on most I've seen (~25 examples). A neighbor used to weld up the endtank configurations for the IC's we put in, but it's just not worth the effort of DIY. BTW TD - the example of sloppy welding you saw on your Spearco core wasn't all that uncommon. Most of the imported IC's I've seen had good quality welds.

Spearco's IC primer is the best simple/quick read I've seen that's quite accurate. As they've sold WI in the past, there's a brief bit on that as well.

One "take home" msg is simply the understanding that these charge cooling systems all work on delta T (temp difference). The hotter the charge air, the more heat they'll remove. The lower the IAT, the less benefit they can provide.

I think it's fair to say the math can't always accurately describe things for simplicity's sake. At the same time, the flaw when that happens isn't the math - it's us humans not yet having a complete enough understanding of what's going on to accurately model w/ the math/physics. Some examples I've seen of the math behind certain computational fluid dynamics models are far beyond anyone doing in their head (autistic or not).

Although the guys that work w/ it the most, develop a decent ability in correlating what/how something will work after they've modeled similar systems & have repeatedly seen cause/effect what works.
The companies that design & build turbochargers have the math/physics/educational req's in their job descriptions for good reason.

I know some of the math necessary, but not nearly all that's beneficial to be good in a turbo company's eyes. Guys like me have to rely on a greater degree of trial-n-error. I can get to a good result, but on the average, it takes more steps to get to the final result. The math/physics understanding is just another tool for the job. I wouldn't underestimate how beneficial that knowledge can be.

Having worked around both long-time mechanics & long-time engineers, I find each group tends to knock the other group's unique knowledge/experience. I'd submit both background's importance(s) are greater than the other group thinks & has the understanding to appreciate.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top