Cams & cam regrind discussion as a performance adder

[Mike K3500]

I know you weren't directly pointing at me.. wasn't taking it that way. I guess I was unaware of them not working well last year and now are working well.. Just from the conversation with Bill, it sounded like they have had these regrinds for many years.

I think it's only been recently that I have heard or read anything about them. Maybe another cam at one time, I think Delta maybe.. ?? and I thought I had read that it was a lil radical, but cannot remember anything about it.

 

[6.2 turbo]

A stock cam with very little lifter preload,and increased spring pressure, seems to work fine for me.

 

[turbonator]

Hi Mike, did you read this whole thread? Here is the second post.....http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sh...formance-adder&p=322916&viewfull=1#post322916

This is one of the reasons we were just curious as to what has dramatically changed from then to now. Many of us have been discussing this for a few years now, usually, after ill welcome in the forums, we use pm's or better yet email. That way information can be exchanged without having to defend ideas and opinions.

Personally, we feel that any build should be accompanied with all of the components working together, and the improvement in one will require the improving of those components supporting or affected by it. Have always felt that improvements can be made to the valve train in these motors. It is one of the areas that we are addressing in the current build.

The 180 turn that Jeff mentioned was not at all to do with you, (although we would like to be able to purchase many pieces such as you have...LOL), it was more an exclamation of surprise at the seeming abrupt change in direction with the availability of this "new (or been around for years) cam.

The Delta 206 and Delta 208 re-grinds that have been tried, were not radical at all, as it utilizes a stock cam to begin with. Something radical would more likely be a fresh grind from a blank, such as the cam that Buddy had ground for his 6.5L build.

Presently there are two "cam threads" that have been resurrected, and the negativity in them is really something.

As always Mike, do your thing. Still, I for one am looking forward to when you finally turn the key and fire your truck up. Please dyno, if it is possible, as, many one us are watching your build (slowly and steadily ) come together......

My apologies to the OP for this derail.....

 

[Paveltolz]

Sucks when threads go negative. Hopefully on this round of talks it can stay sane.

I'd like to add a bit to what Mike has posted to hopefully help answer a couple of questions/provide clarifications. I'm not a Heath Diesel spokesman, I'm just a lucky guy who enjoys the man's trust and confidence.

Bill was originally running the Bonneville Land Speed Racer (LSR) not only as a hobby but as a means of demonstrating what could be accomplished with an as close to stock as possible 6.5, in short, not running a cam kit. I know "Stock" is a relative term but the key words here are 'as possible.' Why? My understanding/belief is that his business was focused more on what one could add from the outsides of the motor in the belief that most customers wouldn't want to go inside to make the improvements. As such, the LSR was a means of demonstrating what could be done pretty much from just the outside of the motor. Fast forward a few years...

Having been experimenting with cams since the 6.2s hit the market, it wasn't until recently that he became convinced that there was actually a market for them. To paraphrase Bill, "These things are flying off the shelves." Hey, live and learn. Times have changed, and as AK and I talked about the other night, these days, the people who own these trucks are more inclined to dig in and tweek from the inside out than a few years ago.

Clarification on 'what's changed since last year." Nothing really if the question was in reference to Bonneville. Bill hasn't run there since 2009 when the motor built and supplied by Diesel Depot grenaded/hydrolocked...go figure right! Will the LSR in 2013 be running the new cam kit? Don't know but that's where my money is...literally.

"Be interesting to see Bill's specs." That info is proprietary so no "cam cards" will be included in your purchase or published on line.

Some terminology updates WRT the Heath Cam Kits: Original thoughts to market them with the name "Tork-Thrust" the decision is to go with a simpler naming convention for the three available kits.
1. HP#3 = Performance Cam Kit (Of his son's truck he said, "The HP#3 / P3 tune combo runs like a stabbed rat even with the stock GM turbo/ Turbo-Master combo, flat panel air filter & OEM Intake.")
2. HT#4 = Towing Cam Kit
3. NA-66= Naturally Aspirated 6.2/6.5 kit.

For the time being, you'll need to call to order them as the Web Site is still under some construction and they haven't been added yet. I understand there is a price change with regards to the tunes as well, good change.

One other interesting point. According to Bill, the HP#3 will be an ideal set up to run with a Larger Turbo. Not one to jump on the non GM Turbo bandwagon, that could be listed as a "change" from last year I guess.

Hopefully this helps some. Happy to answer questions as I can. Bill isn't one to follow the forums as he's kept overly busy answering phones, emails, running a business etc.

 

[ak diesel driver]

You know Paul I understand proprietary but as soon as he sells one all the specs can be had with a degree wheel so it's not like it's something he can keep secret.

 

[Paveltolz]

You know Paul I understand proprietary but as soon as he sells one all the specs can be had with a degree wheel so it's not like it's something he can keep secret.

And you are very right. No doubt that he knows that too but he's not going to just give it up. Can't blame the guy for being a business man.

The way I look at it, every cam with his specs that gets ground outside his shop .... That's his design and work that he's not recouping his investment on. Maybe that will change later...I don't know. It is the same with the tunes, once you've got one then you have the data right there. All it takes is an interest and the equipment to figure it out as well as being willing to lay out the $ to purchase the stuff to clone.

 

[turbonator]

And you are very right. No doubt that he knows that too but he's not going to just give it up. Can't blame the guy for being a business man.

The way I look at it, every cam with his specs that gets ground outside his shop .... That's his design and work that he's not recouping his investment on. Maybe that will change later...I don't know. It is the same with the tunes, once you've got one then you have the data right there. All it takes is an interest and the equipment to figure it out as well as being willing to lay out the $ to purchase the stuff to clone.

As in all business ventures, as long as the original is of high quality and not double the price that someone can have one ground elsewhere, the market will continue to go to the original designer. It is only when the price is set too high that people begin to look at other options. A couple examples for us now are valve train and studs. The former (roller rocker sets), IMO are nearly double what comparable sets are sold for other vehicles. With the price of ARP studs, as they are competitive enough (shop around guys), that we do not search another stud manufacturer.

This said, we look at other options for roller rocker assemblies.

Paul, if you could clarify, is the cam a regrind (from a used core), or is it a grind from a new blank ? Does Bill have intentions of putting any of the trucks with these cams in them on a dyno to substantiate the hp claims ?

How does it feel to be the unofficial spokesman....(you deserve your cam free now.... Thanks again for sharing what you can.....j&j. :thumbsup:

 

[red]

I'll be running mine on a dyno this summer once I have the motor all together. Havent decided if I will be running a engine dyno or the standard setup reading off the rear wheels. Mine is a mechanical injection so the numbers will be slightly different but should give yall a good idea.

 

[635]

I will try to help a little with these new camshafts. They have been going out of the shop about 1 a day now.

Joe's pickup, with Bill's HP3 camshaft, runs real well, I should say real real well.

Bill has a dyno, it just isn't setup yet. A lot of time consuming work is needed to get it setup.

In my 98, I will be installing the HT-4 in my 6.2 engine with 6.5 heads, just a stock 6.2 this time. My 81 SB 2wd, now with a 250 in-line 6, will soon get a 6.2 also but with the NA66 cam.

I do know Paul's engine will have the HP3 cam. I also know the shift point will be in the 4,600 to 4,700 range.

Bill did say as soon as his camshaft is sold to someone else they will be able to find the exact specs. He just won't include it.

Bill's Bonneville racer has been using all stock 'internal' parts to go as fast as it has. But that will change for next season. Along with a wide ratio M-22 'Rock Crusher', manual transmission, will be used instead of the 4L80E.

Probably not the information people wanted to read but that is as much as I can say!

 

[Paveltolz]

Ted is another Unofficial Spokesman for the company. I have "keyboard in mouth" disease so I try to measure what I say as I don't want a misinterpretation of what I meant to say coming out entirely wrong...writing having that effect at times.

I would help Bill set up the dyno if it were in my time lines and his but they are short handed and just busy enough that there isn't one to nail down. Heck, I'd move up there if it were economically feasible.

I have a "dyno" function on my Palmer Performance Scan XL software but I'm doing something wrong cause it says I'm making about 105 HP on my 1/4 mile runs. However, if that is true, then the new motor and cam should be a real blast to run.:thumbsup:

"No Free Lunch" or cams though. I'm supplying the core for the new motor from the one returned under warranty and an additional core from my current motor. Whenever I can get my hands on a cam for a good price, I'll call Bill and he'll pay to have it shipped up there. Additionally, I'm hauling OrionThade's two blocks up there when we do the swap. Orion pulled one cam and that one is waiting UPS pickup as I type. The 599 block has the cam still in it and Todd has instructed me to leave it there. I guess he doesn't trust me without adult supervision which is fine; I don't trust myself sometimes either.:rof:

 

[turbonator]

I'm supplying the core for the new motor from the one returned under warranty and an additional core from my current motor. Whenever I can get my hands on a cam for a good price, I'll call Bill and he'll pay to have it shipped up there. Additionally, I'm hauling OrionThade's two blocks up there when we do the swap. Orion pulled one cam and that one is waiting UPS pickup as I type. The 599 block has the cam still in it and Todd has instructed me to leave it there. I guess he doesn't trust me without adult supervision which is fine; I don't trust myself sometimes either.:rof:

I take it then that this will be a regrind of an existing core. Part of the expense in that is the building up of the lobes prior to the machining process.

Bill has a dyno, it just isn't setup yet.

Probably not the information people wanted to read but that is as much as I can say!

All information is welcome, the news that a dyno will be installed is good news for sure. It is always nice to have data to substantiate the directions a build should head in.

Havent decided if I will be running a engine dyno or the standard setup reading off the rear wheels. Mine is a mechanical injection so the numbers will be slightly different but should give yall a good idea.

Our preference is a chassis dyno, it also allows somewhat for the evaluating of the other drive line components.....and hey, mechanical all the way.....:cornut:

Thanks guys, have a good day....J&J.

 

[ak diesel driver]

I take it then that this will be a regrind of an existing core. Part of the expense in that is the building up of the lobes prior to the machining process.

I was under the impression on a regrind they ground the bottom of the lobe to achieve more lift etc.

 

[Mike K3500]

Thank you guys (635, Paveltolz) for helping add more detail.... Those are the same exact things Bill had explained / informed me, cant say enough good things about the guy, but you guys had put them into better words then I. Bill also informed me that there are going to be some videos up very soon on you tube for everybody to see...

The cams are "re-grinds" and I think he did say there is a "Franklin" core charge, IIRC.

 

[635]

Bill took his red truck out and kept reaching to release the parking brake. He had been driving Joe's green truck and thought the brake must be one becuse it just wasn't doing what he wanted. He will be changing cams in the red truck in a short while. He can't stand his son having a faster truck than him! And Joe plans on the H40 turbo soon.

And I am sure Paul will be wanting the ATT back on after he gets some break in miles on his engine. With the better wrist pin bushing and matching main and rod bearing, his engine will be a real mover! And the boost the ATT makes will really set it the go fast area!

Again, the HP3 cam and computer upgrade will work real well with the larger turbos!

The videos will happen. You people will not believe how fast Joe's truck is, especially for an everyday driver! The speedo climbs so fast it is really hard to believe!!

 

[sshewins]

The drool factor has just gotten worse!

 

[Mike K3500]

While talking to Bill, I gave him the details of my build, He basically said to try and figure out a way or try and get somebody to mod my pump to rev to the 4,600 range. He did say that these engines are rev happy.

 

[ak diesel driver]

personally I think that Ip's are rev happy. they put out more fuel with more rpm. no proof just my thoughts

 

[Paveltolz]

I'm game for trying the ATT again with the new motor broken in but not BROKE.
I enjoy the response of the GM Trubo's as I'm rarely up over 70mph, even when legal to push 80-85. MPG suffer as I learned last summer trying to push the equivalent of a 4X8 sheet of plywood perpendicular to the line of movement. So, I'm usually motoring along at 65-70 on the highways with most of my real driving being city.

With the new motor, if I feel the need to show someone what I got, I hope to have it over and done early, not upwards of 80-100 (although the ATT got me up there pretty quick once "on plane"). Not in the mood to get any "driving awards" from the ever appreciative but less than tolerant LE.

I've a few details to work out with Slim once things settle down in his life. Still have time. Until then I'm on self medication to keep the anticipation in check....

 

[Mike K3500]

personally I think that Ip's are rev happy. they put out more fuel with more rpm. no proof just my thoughts

That is what Bill had said to me.. basically be a lil less concerned with trying to get max fuel out put, and maybe try to get more rev's because more rev's = more fuel. He thinks that there isn't as big a problem with plunger filling on the DB pumps as some may think, but just try to get some more revs out of them.

I still know, "first thing first"... Get my damn truck running, however I'm not that far off, should be here in a week after the dust settles around the homestead.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

I can see now that I need to talk to Bill about the HT#4 towing cam while things are in the start up stage for my build.