Fun with Ted, Todd, Bill and Paul…Resurrecting an Ultimate Rebuild.

[Husker6.5]

Now it's leaking oil at the back of the block, but I think that is the CDR plugging with condensation.

It can also be from the intake manifold bolts not being correctly torqued. Had that problem on my '94 when an "experienced" diesel shop replaced my bad PMD back in '03 shortly after I got the truck. Shortly after they worked on it, I started noticing oil dripping off the back of the block/rear of the oil pan, my oil usage went to hell in a hand basket - so I figured the rear main seal was leaking - and it just didn't seem to have the boost and get-up-and-go it had prior to being "fixed". It wasn't until I tore the top end down after cracking both heads a couple of years later that I discovered that the "professional diesel shop" that had replaced the PMD had not only reused the intake gaskets, but most of the intake bolts were only past finger tight. All the oil running down the back of the block was coming from intake ports 3, 5, 4 and 6 primarily, as CDR blowby being blown out the intake gaskets and down the valley and out the rear of the block - along with most of the boost pressure.

 

[jhornsby3]

Nope, I know I torqued those bolts good and tight the third time I replaced the head gaskets. The heads or I should say one head, has a coolant leak during one of the strokes. It's pulling or pushing coolant into the crank case and causing a condensation issue when it gets warmed up and all fluids are running at optimum temps and flow. The heads were new and the shop I bought them from had a warrenty until I put them on. Then they lost the warrenty or ability to do a warrenty on them. A year now and I have only put a total of 4k on it since the heads. It had been good up until the last trip with the 5er when it started leaking again. I guess the water glass I put in desided to stop working. I need to pull the CDR and tubes out and clean them again and figue ouyt a way to trap the moisture into a bottle or tank. I get some moisture when I run the Water Mist Injection too so it would help keep that in check as well.

It's most promenent when it gets to 190* and above. And it will get that real quick here in the heat. Need to get that in check as well.

 

[Paveltolz]

Side track...still fun with Paul

We had wild fires last month and last night there was a significant amount of rain on the hills above us that created lahar of sorts that washed through the neighborhood a mile north of us. We are fine but a lot of homes were filled with mud that normally would have been fine if it had just been the rain.

I got the word around 10pm they needed volunteers to fill sandbags. The rain and hail had stopped but the stuff was still coming down, filling a 12' deep retention pond and continuing on down to the lake. So, I went down with the truck as that's the kind of thing I likes to do and wow. It looked like the dig scene in "Mummy Returns" when they are trying to dig up Imotep(sp). Hundred people under work lights filling sand bags.:agreed:

Anyway. Until around 3am I made a few runs with bags up the hill and helped a few hundred others shore up space and prepare for the walls of the retention pond to fail. So many trucks moving sand bags up there they were stacked 6-12 deep in line waiting to off load.:thumbsup:

For a while there I thought my tranny was burning up cause there was this smell around the truck but it turned out to be the odor of burned debris from the fires in the mud wafting through the air and permeating everything. Good for me, but not so good for others.

Went back out to help clear mud this morning and holy crap, there must be a thousand people out there, all volunteers trying to get the mud out of the effected homes and out of the street before it all sets up like concrete. Great work ethic out here with a willingness to rally. Orionthade even wanted to get involved and he's 20 miles away. People coming from all over. :hello:

Here's a few shots of the night and today. The owner of the car on the edge of the retention pond was lucky...two other cars are under the water.

 

[tanman_2006]

WOW! Good to see everyone helping out!

Your community will be in my prayers

 

[jhornsby3]

Dodged a bullet just to get shot in the butt. Now that just sucks. Wish I was closer to help as well. Those folks will be in the prayers. Great thing to do, go and helping out like that.

 

[Paveltolz]

Sometimes I sits and thinks...other times I just sits.

Been stewing over things since I'm stuck in neutral... you know, just bouncing ideas and number$ around with uneducated guesses while I bounce off walls. Without being able to get hands or someones eyes on the block because of the holiday, my mind is in spin cycle mode.

1. If I jump over to using Orionthade's 6.2 block (thanks again for the offer); I'm in to the cost of the cleaning and confirming the deck and that the mains are center-lined. Then there's the magniflux check. Then it has to be bored to 0.030 over. About $490 was spent on the current block with cleaning, honing for the DD pistons that were junk, installing main studs, centerline check, surface decking at 0.010, then having the cylinders bored an additional 0.010 to accept the new pistons. DD article claimed they had bored it to 0.020 over OEM for the "ultimate [nightmare] build (so there's some consistency in stories). Anyway, I'm certain that if the boring to 0.010 was $170, then it could be double that plus the magniflux costs. Figure about a $700+ outlay on a small gamble that the block is good.

2. If the current block's decks are able to accept a new pistons of a lower compression (and if I don't get billed for them cause Bill can re-use these), then all that is needed is the new pistons to get their weights correct and re-assembled to the rods...less than $200.

The biggest problem I have is ignorance. So I dug out the MaxxTorque article in hopes of getting data since its a holiday and calling DD is pointless on any day they are open. The idea was to see if there was any deck and or boring data that could be of help. What do you know....
? How much below the deck surface should the piston sit? Jamie claims they were sitting at .002 below deck surface on all eight.
? How much above the deck surface are the new pistons sticking? Well, if the pistons were at -0.002" and since we took 0.010", all things being equal the pistons were at least 0.008" above the deck surface.
? How much surface material did Avant take off the deck prior to the build? Quote from the article was 0.004".


Couple of quotes from the article -
“For this project, we chose to use a crack-free and seasoned 1990 6.2L block…Ultimately, the block ended up 0.020 inches over on the bore with 0.004 inches taken off of the deck surface.”
“The squaring of the deck surfaces and the setting of the rod lengths that I discussed earlier, enabled us to achieve a piston protrusion (the distance the pistons sit below the deck surface at top dead center) within 0.002 inches on all cylinders.”

So there it is, if Jamie can be trusted.


Questions for the audience.
If Avant took 0.004 off of a block deck that was still OEM in height, is there enough deck surface/cylinder height left to work with having removed and additional 0.010? Seems to me that there should plenty left but I lack fidelity on the situation so have to ask.
What's the difference in piston heights from 22:1 to 18:1 and what compression piston should I purchase to get the pistons sitting 0.002 below the surface again if I am in deed currently only 0.008 above? I thought we ordered stock compression which for a 6.2 is...what...22:1? That's the number I recall.
Should I quite being a ninny and just go with an 18:1 piston and be happy the pain is over?

 

[L98TPI]

Sheesh... I think I would have shot myself by now.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Sounds to me like your builder should be the one to make the best decisions with the motor as to what will & won't work best, what is he saying you should do??

EDIT: The normal piston protrusion for these motors is .003 - .006 above the deck, if you are up to .008 above you will be fine as is......more than that use the thicker gasket....

My KD 18:1 pistons are .005 above the deck....

 

[ak diesel driver]

my ? is if it was already decked why did it need to be decked again and why so much????

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Questions for the audience.
If Avant took 0.004 off of a block deck that was still OEM in height, is there enough deck surface/cylinder height left to work with having removed and additional 0.010? Seems to me that there should plenty left but I lack fidelity on the situation so have to ask.
What's the difference in piston heights from 22:1 to 18:1 and what compression piston should I purchase to get the pistons sitting 0.002 below the surface again if I am in deed currently only 0.008 above? I thought we ordered stock compression which for a 6.2 is...what...22:1? That's the number I recall.
Should I quite being a ninny and just go with an 18:1 piston and be happy the pain is over?[/QUOTE]

One more question, why are you tiring to keep or get the pistons below the deck..... if I am reading your post right, you are .008 above the deck, you are fine there, if you are worried about the height, use the .010 thicker gasket and press on with the build..... I would still like to hear what your builder is advising on the matter, i am not tiring to stir anything up, just wondering is all..

 

[btfarm]

my ? is if it was already decked why did it need to be decked again and why so much????

Heck, you're a tradesman... You know how it goes...'cut twice, measure once'.:agreed:








:hihi:

I would give serious thought to using a thick head gasket Paul if the 'overdecked' block is good in every other way.

 

[Paveltolz]

They will talk to Bill but not us for some reason. Maybe lerking here?

The machinist tried to square the deck but couldn't because it was "wavy." Why? Quality work by DD or shoddy work to match their choice of main bearing or comedy of both.

 

[ak diesel driver]

my understanding ,which could be way off, is the stock pistons were all the same and the precup is where the compression ration got lowered. unless you get a set of custom machined 18:1 from someone like kennedy

 

[635]

The reason for the pistons being a problem to far out of the block is because of the intake lobe on the performance camshaft. Not saying what the specifications are on the camshaft but the piston is too close to the intake valve.

The block was decked another .010 because the surface was too wavy.

The reason for the .030 overbore was the .020 pistons that were previously used were too sloppy. A very loose .020 to a very tight .030. Rich just honed the cylinders, no boring needed. I failed to inform both Bill and Paul the pistons the engine was rebuilt with were 20:1

Not to change the subject on Paul's engine, but my brand new heads had to have the intake valve seats recut about .006 and then the valve stem had to have the same amount cut down, then springs had to be reshimed. And that was just for a mild camshaft. Just a stock 6.2 with new GEP 6.5 heads and a mild camshaft should work just fine.

Hope this clears things up a little on Paul's engine.

 

[Paveltolz]

One more question, why are you tiring to keep or get the pistons below the deck..... if I am reading your post right, you are .008 above the deck, you are fine there, if you are worried about the height, use the .010 thicker gasket and press on with the build..... I would still like to hear what your builder is advising on the matter, i am not tiring to stir anything up, just wondering is all..

No worries about stirring things up. You're good and fully understand and appreciate your questions. Besides, my bored mind trying to get around this stuff has things stirred up pretty well.

To refresh, I'm 800 miles away from the work site and the latest news of the pistons being too tall with no data has my mind spinning on a holiday weekend with everyone at the shops enjoying a day off from people like me asking seemingly stupid questions. I'm ignorant and freely admit 'lights are on, but no one is at home.' Besides, the last time I helped build a motor, I was 15 and simply tightening bolts and holding parts in place.

In the meantime, I am just trying to get some edification and answers based on the assumptions that if all facts available bore out, on what I can garner from the article and machinist notes, would that 0.008 be alright and appreciate the factual response.

I honestly don't know the actual height these pistons were protruding above the deck (Ted isn't sure cause he wasn't able to measure as he was chasing parts that Joe hid/didn't order for his motor).

Having seen the heads, it seems to me a piston would create a knocking noise over and above pre-cups rattling on a cold morning if it were any height above the deck. That's just my observation based on that I have seen the heads and there isn't room for a piston to go above the deck so, to me, it doesn't make any sense. Now add a modified camshaft along with potential shifts at 4600 rpm (not that the rods would stretch...or would they?) and "another boogie man" appears to me.

Your pistons above the deck are an educational surprise, albeit a welcome one. In my case, the builder has apparently measured my piston's height and determined that they are too tall but, again, I don't know the actual height. I'll call in the morning and get some straight answers.

Why DD would have put them 0.002 below the deck? I've not one clue and they don't talk to customers post sale these days. I should re-read the article to see if it gives any info on what they were striving for compression wise.

I guess I should comment that I too am not trying to stir up anything for or against the machinist or builder, I'm just on a quest for edification. Besides, its generated some technical/mechanical back and forth here. That's good right? I mean something good has to come out of all this!

On Edit 10 minutes after Ted posted in: Thanks for the added info Ted. My mind has a hard time with out pictures or objects to refer too.

 

[Husker6.5]

Yeah, I could see with the higher lift/altered lobe profile timing where having the piston top below deck height instead of above it would provide some critical clearance between valves and piston crown. That being said, if you drop to 18:1 (or lower) compression, you can raise your boost accordingly without detrimental results like rod bending or blowing head gaskets and thus cram more air in to utilize more aggressive fueling rates = MORE POWER!

 

[Mike K3500]

Whew... sounds like this thread should be renamed .. "Un-Fun waiting on my motor"... probably would be $$$ and time ahead just buying a Optimizer from Ted's, sticking your cam in it and running it.

Mike

 

[3500GMC]

A few thoughts.

Note that a decked block changes the relationship of the intake manifold and cylinder head.. Port and bolt alignment.. It can be fixed by another machining operation..(yay... milling of the intake) Same goes for the t-stat xover..

Remember Felpro makes a .010" thicker head gasket..

Pistons do 'rock' in the bore during operation. Keep that one in mind. Don't want to get the pistons 'too' close. (I'd stick to +.005 to zero)

Re-sized rods will affect assembled piston height in bore. (this has already taken place I hope)

Piston crowns can be cut 'a little' also. Another machining operation.. Yay.. If the crowns are coated, well, this would be a tough one to decide.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[btfarm]

A few thoughts.

Re-sized rods will affect assembled piston height in bore. (this has already taken place I hope)

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Good point. Whenever I was building a SBC that needed the block deck cut, I always had the rods resized based on the amount cut off the block so I could (maybe) compensate for the height loss by moving the big end centerline. A trick my balancer/machinist taught me.

 

[Paveltolz]

A few thoughts.

Note that a decked block changes the relationship of the intake manifold and cylinder head.. Port and bolt alignment.. It can be fixed by another machining operation..(yay... milling of the intake) Same goes for the t-stat xover..

Remember Felpro makes a .010" thicker head gasket..

Pistons do 'rock' in the bore during operation. Keep that one in mind. Don't want to get the pistons 'too' close. (I'd stick to +.005 to zero)

Re-sized rods will affect assembled piston height in bore. (this has already taken place I hope)

Piston crowns can be cut 'a little' also. Another machining operation.. Yay.. If the crowns are coated, well, this would be a tough one to decide.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

With Regard To "More Machining"...QUIT TRYING TO CHEER ME UP.:rof:

Seriously, Thanks for the rocking pistons and the angle changes with the heads to intake a T-stat. I will look at that one closely. I think the real issue with pistons boils down to two things. One is the pistons are probably just a bit too high, even for an 0.010 gasket. The other, compounded by the first issue, is as 635 stated, valve clearance with the new camshaft.

Cutting down the pistons was considered.
Rods were not resized rather their configuration was confirmed

As for being $$$ and Time ahead of the project with an Alabama Ted's block. True statement as for $$$ and time. But, not convinced I would be ahead motor wise. I may have been better off with Orionthade's block had I started with it in the first place but I'd have to have purchased crank, rods, push rods, pistons (at real cost), bearings, rockers, flywheel a host of other parts as well as pay the costs of preparing the block as described earlier. I would do the same with the Alabama Ted's motor too so money wise I would be in the same boat. No, I think I'll stick with the current pain level because Time I have and fortunately, money I can earn...better the devil you know!