Research Project, Green Energy

[GM Guy]

I am assisting some teachers here at college with a class they are setting up about green energy. I am personally looking into the vehicle side of things, and we have ethanol already covered, but now we venture into the wide world of green fuels in diesel applications.

My questions are:

1) What types of setups are there?
a. I know there are straight wast veggie oil setups, dual tanks, circulaiting coolant, etc. aka WVO
b. I also know of biodiesel, made from veggie oil, and other oil sources, camelina, canola, etc. it needs to go through the process, and can be ran straight, no dual tanks needed

2) Where are some good sources of info for this industry, i already found biodiesel.org for the fuel itself, but what about biodiesel production, as well as WVO conversion companies?

Is there anything else that needs covered? (besides getting the one teacher out of their Prius and into a TDI Jetta?)

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[Franko914]

I am assisting some teachers here at college with a class they are setting up about green energy. I am personally looking into the vehicle side of things, and we have ethanol already covered, but now we venture into the wide world of green fuels in diesel applications.

My questions are:

1) What types of setups are there?
a. I know there are straight wast veggie oil setups, dual tanks, circulaiting coolant, etc. aka WVO
b. I also know of biodiesel, made from veggie oil, and other oil sources, camelina, canola, etc. it needs to go through the process, and can be ran straight, no dual tanks needed

2) Where are some good sources of info for this industry, i already found biodiesel.org for the fuel itself, but what about biodiesel production, as well as WVO conversion companies?

Is there anything else that needs covered? (besides getting the one teacher out of their Prius and into a TDI Jetta?)

Thanks in advance everyone!

Just to clarify:

1) a. Diesel engines can be run on the following green fuels:

(i) "SVO" Straight Vegetable Oil, like a jug of corn oil straight off the grocery shelf; does not need further processing to be used as fuel; fuel lacks lubricity and will shorten life of high pressure fuel injection pump system

(ii) "WVO" Waste Vegetable Oil, must be processed to remove solids/particulates (pieces of garlic/chicken/freedom-fries) and water and/or other undesirable liquids; requires more work; fuel lacks lubricity and will shorten life of high pressure fuel injection pump system

(iii) Bio-diesel, produced by chemically processing vegetable oil (SVO or WVO) or rendered animal fat; requires even more work; fuel possesses very high lubricity, even higher than dino-diesel

1) b. Setups include:

(i) Use original fuel tanks (in cool to cold climates, tank/fuel line/fuel filter heaters must be used; starting might be an issue even if warm weather)

(ii) Install auxiliary fuel tank (start/stop engine on dino-diesel, switch-over to green fuel once started; heaters still needed in cool to cold climates)

2) Try MotherEarthNews.com, MotherEarthBioFuels.com, JourneytoForever.org

Your teacher will be out of the Prius, temporarily, without you having to lift a finger -- it's one of the four (4) million vehicles recalled by Toyota/Lexus.

 

[GM Guy]

thank you for the great input!

I take it a seperate tank is just an option on SVO? If funds allow, it is better to use one, right?

 

[Franko914]

thank you for the great input!

I take it a seperate tank is just an option on SVO? If funds allow, it is better to use one, right?

All SVO/WVO conversions I've heard/read about use the dual tank setup primarily to start/stop the engine on dino-diesel and switching to veggie oil only after the engine has started/warmed up. As such, I wouldn't consider it an option.

The choice arises as to which tank to use for dino-diesel leaving the other one for SVO/WVO. The following link provides a decent description of dual fuel setups but does not go into details:

http://www.auxtank.com/auxtank/alternative/ppoinfo.htm

Regards,
Franko

 

[Pruittx2]

here is a great resource also.
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/

 

[Dave01]

(ii) "WVO" Waste Vegetable Oil, must be processed to remove solids/particulates (pieces of garlic/chicken/freedom-fries) and water and/or other undesirable liquids; requires more work; fuel lacks lubricity and will shorten life of high pressure fuel injection pump system

Frank, I don't agree that wvo lacks lubricity, it actually has outstanding lubricity. If it shortens the life of an injection system its due to viscosity or heat issues.

 

[Franko914]

Frank, I don't agree that wvo lacks lubricity, it actually has outstanding lubricity. If it shortens the life of an injection system its due to viscosity or heat issues.

Hello Dave01,

After the WVO/SVO goes through the chemical/transesterification process, the resulting fuel (dio-diesel) is imparted with a lubricity property that is much higher than that for dino-diesel.

Even if WVO/SVO is heated up to improve viscosity, it still lacks the lubricity to prevent "premature" wear/failure of the IP. I've heard of VO burning rigs that have their VO fuel lines specifically heated up, especially for cold weather conditions, that need the IPs replaced at 80k to 90k miles -- still a bargain compared to the $$$ you would have spent on dino-diesel ($12,000 to $13,500 for 4,000 gallons of dino-diesel at $3 per gallon at 20 mpg).

Many have tried mixing bio-diesel with dino-diesel and experienced quiter IP operation. Some have even tried mixing small amounts of bio-diesel with gasoline in gassers and swear their engines run quiter.

Those that have tried mixing SVO/WVO with dino-diesel experienced louder IP operation.

If I were to run a WVO/SVO set up on my 6.5, I would mix bio-diesel at a ratio of about 4 VO : 1 BD to ensure a fair amount of lubricity is present to keep the IP quiet.

So, in the context of fuel for diesel engines, WVO/SVO I believe lacks the lubricity needed to prevent premature IP wear. It's a great lubricant, though, as a replacement for mud in mud-wrestling...

Regards,
Franko

 

[Dave01]

I guesss I'll have to continue to disagree, but I respect your opinions, I'm certainly no expert!

I certainly can't hear the IP on my 6.5 operating, so I wouldn't know if its quieter or not. I run 5% wvo in my diesel all the time, have done so since mid winter last year. I also run straight wvo on a 2 tank system. There is no question in my mind that wvo has the same lubricity level as bio diesel.

The premature IP failures are the result of viscosity and/or heat. Its a double edged sword, you want the high fuel temps to drop the viscosity of the wvo so its close to diesel viscosity, but the IP isn't designed to run on 200 degree F fuel. If you run the wvo cooler and heat it more post IP (hard to do in my opinion, but that's a different subject) you subject the IP to higher viscosity fuel than it was designed for. Either way you are putting more strain on the IP than diesel would.

Some injection systems are so robust they just churn through wvo with no problems. The 6.5 system is at the opposite end of that spectrum, very sensitive to wvo viscosity.

I'm up over 20,000 miles on straight wvo, so far so good, but in truth I don't expect my IP to last like it would on diesel. Only time will tell .....

Are you running a wvo system on your Tahoe? Bio diesel?

 

[GM Guy]

So your saying that even though in your fingers WVO/SVO is slippery, it lacks mollecular strength to keep friction/wear from occuring? And then on the other hand, biodiesel has strong molecules that are great friction preventers?

 

[Franko914]

So your saying that even though in your fingers WVO/SVO is slippery, it lacks mollecular strength to keep friction/wear from occuring? And then on the other hand, biodiesel has strong molecules that are great friction preventers?

From a simplistic perspective, yes. The chemical reaction that converts "slippery" WVO/SVO into bio-diesel also results in a byproduct, "soapy" glycerin. Think about it... you've got this "slippery" liquid that is so-so as a fuel lubricant from which you remove this "soapy" substance that sucks as a fuel lubricant, so what you're left with must be a better fuel lubricant. Remember that the context of the use of WVO/SVO or bio-diesel as a fuel is "lubricity."

From a less simplistic perspective... from the National Biodiesel Board (on lubricity benefits): Lubricity has sometimes been mistakenly compared to the viscosity, or thickness of a fuel. The following statement from Lucas (the leading fuel injection equipment manufacturer in England, that was recently purchased by Delphi) explains it well:

“The lubrication of the fuel is not directly provided by the viscosity of the fuel, but by other components in the fuel which prevent wear on contacting metal surfaces...

The addition of biodiesel, even in very small quantities, has been shown to provide increases in fuel lubricity using a variety of bench scale test methods...

Biodiesel has been tested, at varying concentrations, with poor lubricity Number 2 and Number 1 diesel fuels representative of that on the market after 1993 (i.e. fuel refined to meet a 500 ppm maximum sulfur content)...

For the Number 2 diesel fuel, 1% biodiesel was sufficient to achieve the desired increase in lubricity, while the Number 1 diesel fuel took almost 2%. In addition, the data show that most of the lubricity benefits of the biodiesel were achieved by adding only 2% biodiesel to either Number 1 or Number 2 diesel...” http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF

Pretty interesting stuff, isn't it? And they were talking about #2 and #1 dino-diesel, not WVO/SVO...

I've put my Tahoe project on hold until after I redo the leaking head gasket. Meanwhile, I've collected a fair bit of WVO and rainwater, successfully tested a couple of components for the bio-diesel reactor (like the methanol condenser and reactor's circulating pump), and am in the process of designing/testing a cheap centrifuge to filter (for particulates and water) the WVO and bio-diesel (after straining/filtering through 25 micron washable stainless steel oil filters). I'm leaning more towards running "The Beast" on WVO mixed with bio-diesel, this way, I won't have to convert all the WVO into bio-diesel. Dang, I miss driving my diesel truck...

Franko

 

[vegtech]

Franko914,
you said

"After the WVO/SVO goes through the chemical/transesterification process, the resulting fuel (dio-diesel) is imparted with a lubricity property that is much higher than that for dino-diesel."

and

"The chemical reaction that converts "slippery" WVO/SVO into bio-diesel also results in a byproduct, "soapy" glycerin. Think about it... you've got this "slippery" liquid that is so-so as a fuel lubricant from which you remove this "soapy" substance that sucks as a fuel lubricant, so what you're left with must be a better fuel lubricant. Remember that the context of the use of WVO/SVO or bio-diesel as a fuel is "lubricity."

You are talking about two entirely different things. First off a WVO or SVO is just that. Waste Vegetable Oil or Streight Vegetable Oil. There is NO chemical/transesterification at all. It is simply filtered and de- watered. You are correct when referring to Bio- Diesel. There is lubricity loss in the process of making bio out of vegetable oil. When you make bio diesel out of veg oil you are converting each gallon of fuel to run in any unmodified diesel engine. WVO/SVO SYSTEMS are put on a diesel vehicle to run unmodified vegetable oil. The system requires two tanks. One for Diesel to start and stop the engine on and the other for VEG to travel on.

 

[Franko914]

Franko914,
you said

"After the WVO/SVO goes through the chemical/transesterification process, the resulting fuel (dio-diesel) is imparted with a lubricity property that is much higher than that for dino-diesel."

and

"The chemical reaction that converts "slippery" WVO/SVO into bio-diesel also results in a byproduct, "soapy" glycerin. Think about it... you've got this "slippery" liquid that is so-so as a fuel lubricant from which you remove this "soapy" substance that sucks as a fuel lubricant, so what you're left with must be a better fuel lubricant. Remember that the context of the use of WVO/SVO or bio-diesel as a fuel is "lubricity."

You are talking about two entirely different things. First off a WVO or SVO is just that. Waste Vegetable Oil or Streight Vegetable Oil. There is NO chemical/transesterification at all. It is simply filtered and de- watered. You are correct when referring to Bio- Diesel. There is lubricity loss in the process of making bio out of vegetable oil. When you make bio diesel out of veg oil you are converting each gallon of fuel to run in any unmodified diesel engine. WVO/SVO SYSTEMS are put on a diesel vehicle to run unmodified vegetable oil. The system requires two tanks. One for Diesel to start and stop the engine on and the other for VEG to travel on.

The first quoted paragraph talks about WVO/SVO going through a chemical process to be converted into bio-diesel... the second quoted paragraph talks about a chemical reaction that converts WVO/SVO into bio-diesel.

The first quoted paragraph talks about bio-diesel having a much higher lubricity property than dino-diesel... the second quoted paragraph talks about the resulting fuel from a chemical reaction that is a better "fuel lubricant."

To sum up both paragraphs: WVO/SVO requires a chemical reaction to be converted into bio-diesel, the latter having more lubricity than dino-diesel or WVO/SVO. Bio-diesel's lubricity characteristics as a fuel was compared to both dino-diesel and WVO/SVO's lubricity characteristics as fuels.

At that point in the thread, we were, simply, debating the differences in lubricity of the dino-diesel, bio-diesel, WVO/SVO as fuel in a diesel engine. We weren't discussing modifications to a diesel engine to run bio-diesel, WVO or SVO.

Mention of dual fuel tanks was mentioned earlier in the thread by me, I think, stating, pretty much what you just repeated.