vdb11
Halfmoon Detroit #2
Hello all, this is my first post and it's not even about my truck. My dad owns a 1995 C3500HD, 6.5, NV4500 T-tag dump truck. He is getting very frustrated with it lately. He has replaced several things as you can see, and he cannot get it to stay running:
Problem: Explain your problem in concise language (ie: Cranks but won’t fire). The truck will not stay running. When he starts the truck, it will crank over fine, and run good, and anywhere between 30 seconds and 20 minutes later it will just shut off like somebody turned the key off. Sometimes it restarts when tried immediately after shutting off, many times it will just sit there and crank.
Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:
- Year: 1995
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500): C3500HD, 15,000 GVW
- Automatic or Standard: Standard
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) 53,000 miles
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) : PMD (new, but in stock location for now), Lift Pump, OPS (from NAPA), harness between PMD and IP, cleaned tank sock
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? F engine Turbo
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) any temp, its in the garage right now so maybe 55-65*F, doesn't SEEM to depend on temperature
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) on road diesel, #2 I believe?
- What fuel additives are you using? none
- Where are you located? Central Pennsylvania
General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter: I'm not sure
- Fuel filter: almost new, maybe 3 months old
- CDR Valve? I'm not sure, but doesn't not have significant blowby at dipstick
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at: I think a couple years ago when head gasket was done at dealer
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at: synethic, replaced recently, maybe 2,000 miles max
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at : good charge, he has charged them a couple times while diagnosing this problem, spins motor pretty fast (enough to fire)
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): Battery and all grounds cleaned and tightened in the last month
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? 53,000 miles (never replaced I think) What type? Factory
- Injectors - last changed at : never
History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? Nothing special, just using it to haul things like always occasionally
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? yes the truck ran well before this problem, and still does when it is running
- Has this problem ever happened before? No, just over the last couple months
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. The truck sits alot, as you can tell by the mileage. It is used occasionally for my dad's construction business. It is job specific so he may use it for three or four days in a row on a job then it might sit for a month. The head gaskets were done a few years ago and the clutch and tranny were rebuilt recently, by the local dealer. PMD installed by a local diesel mechanic.
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) Yes local mechanic brought his scan tool down And? the computer showed no codes and no history of codes
Diagnostics:
1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? Yes, after sitting for a little bit
1b] Does the engine crank over? Yes
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? Yes, they are charged, probably not the best but still work
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? Yes
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? Haven't noticed, does this have one?
1f] Does your glow plug light come on?Yes For how long? Normal length cycle, same as it did before, however, sometimes after cranking it for a bit while we are testing they do not stay on for a full cycle
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? No smoke at all, sometimes just a little puff of black when it fires, much much less than mine does at startup!
1h] Does the Service Engine Light Glow during Start/bulb check? No it does not
2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? Yes
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? Not when cranking, hasn't been tested while running
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? On the DS4, this is the line on top correct? If so then yes plenty of fuel is coming out of that line when cranking
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? For a while we could not even get it to start and we were getting no fuel to the injectors when cranking. It must be getting some now that we can get it started, but I don't think this flow is remaining as the truck runs
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? Not that I noticed, cap has been replaced not too long ago, I believe by the dealer (old one was lost)
3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) on pump unfortunately
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? brand new stock harness
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness.Clean, assuming my dad found them all
3d] PMD Make: Not sure, not cheap, GM maybe?
3e] PMD Age: BRAND NEW
4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? nope, anytime, within 20 minutes of starting
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) Haven't noticed, it hasn't been on the road since problem occured, it will shut off just sitting on flat ground idling
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? Have not tried that, but it doesn't run long enough to warm up anything
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? I think it did that once or twice while my dad was driving it, but it has shut off completely here at home sitting everytime
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? I don't know, my dad was driving, he probably didn't notice
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? n/a
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power?Not really, can't really tell
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? I don't know, but when the truck shuts off all of the dash lights seem to remain on as normal as if the truck is running
5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? Did not test that
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? not tested
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? Also not tested, but I don't think so
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? NO
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? NO
6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges (boost, EGT) ? Not on this truck
6b] Maximum boost under load? I do not know, factory settings whatever that is, like 6-7 psi max?
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? No, factory ECM
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? exhaust replaced with factory exhaust except for there is no soot trap, everything else factory
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum (OEM)? OEM
7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? Single I believe
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? Not sure
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? I don't think so
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? NO
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? Have not tested
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? no
List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.
The truck sounds, smells and looks just as it did before when it is running. Smooth, no smoke, no crazy mechanical noises. It is literally like someone reached in and shut off the key. It is usually within 20 minutes of starting the truck. We are getting plenty of fuel to the top of the IP. As I said before the truck sits alot, which I know is not the best for it. But I would say once a month at the very minimum it is run. Also, the fuel shut off solenoid DOES CLICK when you turn the key. Can these malfunction once running and shut off fuel supply? I am not very familiar with these DS4 pumps, so if someone could educate me on these, as to what wires should have power, and what the Optical sensor does, etc, that way we can test wires, help narrow down the problem. We are really open to any suggestions though. We think it has something to do with the pump, whether it be wiring/power to the pump or the pump itself, but we are open to anything. Any thoughts? I thought it was the PMD and so did the local diesel mechanic, but it was not. Now my dad is a little irritated since he just shelled out the money for a new PMD. He is not exactly loving his 6.5 as much as I do mine haha
Any thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated. Due to his business and this being job specific, when he needs the truck, he needs it. Thank you! I am liking this forum so far!
Problem: Explain your problem in concise language (ie: Cranks but won’t fire). The truck will not stay running. When he starts the truck, it will crank over fine, and run good, and anywhere between 30 seconds and 20 minutes later it will just shut off like somebody turned the key off. Sometimes it restarts when tried immediately after shutting off, many times it will just sit there and crank.
Demographics: tell us about your truck and your ambient conditions:
- Year: 1995
- Truck model and class (ie: c2500): C3500HD, 15,000 GVW
- Automatic or Standard: Standard
- Mileage: (indicate miles or km) 53,000 miles
- Replaced parts and mods (IP, PMD, chip/PCM, TM, injectors etc) : PMD (new, but in stock location for now), Lift Pump, OPS (from NAPA), harness between PMD and IP, cleaned tank sock
- Model: ‘S’ or ‘F’ engine, NA or Turbo, EGR? F engine Turbo
- Ambient outside temp: (indicate *C or *F) any temp, its in the garage right now so maybe 55-65*F, doesn't SEEM to depend on temperature
- What fuel are you using? (#1 Diesel, #2 Diesel, Bio, VO, WVO, etc) on road diesel, #2 I believe?
- What fuel additives are you using? none
- Where are you located? Central Pennsylvania
General maintenance: inspect and evaluate the condition of each. When were they last changed?
- Air filter: I'm not sure
- Fuel filter: almost new, maybe 3 months old
- CDR Valve? I'm not sure, but doesn't not have significant blowby at dipstick
- Coolant – last flushed/replaced at: I think a couple years ago when head gasket was done at dealer
- Oil – synthetic/regular, changed at: synethic, replaced recently, maybe 2,000 miles max
- Batteries – state of charge, (matched set) replaced at : good charge, he has charged them a couple times while diagnosing this problem, spins motor pretty fast (enough to fire)
- Battery cables and grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened): Battery and all grounds cleaned and tightened in the last month
- Glow Plugs - how many miles on them? 53,000 miles (never replaced I think) What type? Factory
- Injectors - last changed at : never
History: (Describe how the problem first appeared.)
- What were you doing when it happened? Nothing special, just using it to haul things like always occasionally
- How was the truck running fine before this problem appeared? yes the truck ran well before this problem, and still does when it is running
- Has this problem ever happened before? No, just over the last couple months
- Describe any related factors that might be part of the problem. The truck sits alot, as you can tell by the mileage. It is used occasionally for my dad's construction business. It is job specific so he may use it for three or four days in a row on a job then it might sit for a month. The head gaskets were done a few years ago and the clutch and tranny were rebuilt recently, by the local dealer. PMD installed by a local diesel mechanic.
- Have you checked for DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes)? (Y.N) Yes local mechanic brought his scan tool down And? the computer showed no codes and no history of codes
Diagnostics:
1] Starting:
1a] Does the engine start? Yes, after sitting for a little bit
1b] Does the engine crank over? Yes
1c] Are your batteries fully charged? Yes, they are charged, probably not the best but still work
1d] Have you removed, cleaned, and tightened all battery connections? Yes
1e] Does your Wait to Start light come on for a time? How long? Haven't noticed, does this have one?
1f] Does your glow plug light come on?Yes For how long? Normal length cycle, same as it did before, however, sometimes after cranking it for a bit while we are testing they do not stay on for a full cycle
1g] Do you see smoke from the exhaust while cranking? What color? No smoke at all, sometimes just a little puff of black when it fires, much much less than mine does at startup!
1h] Does the Service Engine Light Glow during Start/bulb check? No it does not
2] Fuel Issues (if not running):
2a] Can you hear your lift pump working? Yes
2b] Do you get a steady flow of fuel from the water drain (T-handle) ? Not when cranking, hasn't been tested while running
2c] Loosen the inlet line from the IP – is fuel coming out (Lift Pump on)? On the DS4, this is the line on top correct? If so then yes plenty of fuel is coming out of that line when cranking
2d] Loosen an injector line and crank the engine - does fuel come out? For a while we could not even get it to start and we were getting no fuel to the injectors when cranking. It must be getting some now that we can get it started, but I don't think this flow is remaining as the truck runs
2e] Do you hear a vacuum (hiss) when you remove the fuel cap? Not that I noticed, cap has been replaced not too long ago, I believe by the dealer (old one was lost)
3] PMD / IP Issues
3a] Location of PMD (on pump, on intake, remote mounted) on pump unfortunately
3b] Condition of Extension harness (if used) Vendor or Homemade? brand new stock harness
3c] Condition of grounds / ground wires to IP / PMD. Check Harness.Clean, assuming my dad found them all
3d] PMD Make: Not sure, not cheap, GM maybe?
3e] PMD Age: BRAND NEW
4] Stalling Issues
4a] Do you experience stalling only when hot? nope, anytime, within 20 minutes of starting
4b] Does it stall under particular circumstances? (ie hit bump, or on accel) Haven't noticed, it hasn't been on the road since problem occured, it will shut off just sitting on flat ground idling
4c] Does pouring cool water over the IP seem to help with restarting? Have not tried that, but it doesn't run long enough to warm up anything
4d] Is stalling momentary (engine recovers)? I think it did that once or twice while my dad was driving it, but it has shut off completely here at home sitting everytime
4e] Does SES light come on when engine hiccups? I don't know, my dad was driving, he probably didn't notice
4f] Does cruise control quit working when engine hiccups? n/a
4g] Does re-starting seem to reset engine, restoring cruise and power?Not really, can't really tell
4h] Changes to dash lights or instruments during stalling events? I don't know, but when the truck shuts off all of the dash lights seem to remain on as normal as if the truck is running
5] Running Issues
5a] On cold start, does upper rad hose get hard before engine warms up? Did not test that
5b] Any bubbles or oil film in coolant overflow tank? not tested
5c] Any white slime on oil surfaces (dipstick, CDR, oil Fill cap)? Also not tested, but I don't think so
5d] Excessive white smoke from exhaust on cold start? NO
5e] Excessive black smoke from exhaust under hard acceleration? NO
6] Performance Issues
6a] Do you have gauges (boost, EGT) ? Not on this truck
6b] Maximum boost under load? I do not know, factory settings whatever that is, like 6-7 psi max?
6c] Have you added a performance PCM (reflash) or Chip? No, factory ECM
6d] Have you changed exhaust / downpipe / crossover? exhaust replaced with factory exhaust except for there is no soot trap, everything else factory
6e] Wastegate – mechanical or vacuum (OEM)? OEM
7] Temperature-related Issues:
7a] Single or dual thermostats? Single I believe
7b] Have you replaced them lately? Manufacturer of replacements? Not sure
7c] Have you pulled and cleaned Radiator and coolers lately? I don't think so
7d] Have you replaced the fan clutch? Manufacturer of replacement? NO
7e] (winter) Have you tested your antifreeze? Good to what temp? Have not tested
7f] (winter) Are you using a winter grille cover? no
List and describe any other factors which are not addressed in this checklist. We can’t see, hear, smell, or touch your truck, so the more descriptive information you can give, the more likely it is that somebody can assist you.
The truck sounds, smells and looks just as it did before when it is running. Smooth, no smoke, no crazy mechanical noises. It is literally like someone reached in and shut off the key. It is usually within 20 minutes of starting the truck. We are getting plenty of fuel to the top of the IP. As I said before the truck sits alot, which I know is not the best for it. But I would say once a month at the very minimum it is run. Also, the fuel shut off solenoid DOES CLICK when you turn the key. Can these malfunction once running and shut off fuel supply? I am not very familiar with these DS4 pumps, so if someone could educate me on these, as to what wires should have power, and what the Optical sensor does, etc, that way we can test wires, help narrow down the problem. We are really open to any suggestions though. We think it has something to do with the pump, whether it be wiring/power to the pump or the pump itself, but we are open to anything. Any thoughts? I thought it was the PMD and so did the local diesel mechanic, but it was not. Now my dad is a little irritated since he just shelled out the money for a new PMD. He is not exactly loving his 6.5 as much as I do mine haha
Any thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated. Due to his business and this being job specific, when he needs the truck, he needs it. Thank you! I am liking this forum so far!
