Big T
Well-Known Member
Yes it just floats there. Not sure there is enough room for it to jump off.
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Need help! In a pickle in Nome, Alaska
- Thread starter Shatmepants
- Start date
It's not physically possible to jump the IP gear out of time as there is NOT enough clearance in the chain drive housing to allow the gears to un-mesh. I have tried it.
However, the timing chain will stretch out to very very sloppy from the normal shock IP loads and I have seen the sprockets wear down the crankshaft key. Hold over bad cost cutting design decision from the Oldsmobile Diesel "We didn't learn Nuthin" disaster. Manual calls for 6 month timing adjustments on the DB2 mechanical IP's due to known chain stretch.
I would change the IP without touching it at this time. If this pump also has trouble then figure on replacing the chain while you are in there. Cloyes is a good brand as the "engine tech krap brand" I got one time had a sprocket machined off center.
snarl95
Well-Known Member
It could have the guide pin in the wrong hole.
Big T
Well-Known Member
I think the three bolts and respective holes in the gear are spaced such that it only goes on one way.
snarl95
Well-Known Member
How many miles on the injectors?
Shatmepants
Member
- Messages
- 24
- Reaction score
- 71
Man, what a long couple of days. I won't leave you guys hanging, but I'm way too tired tonight to tell the story. We don't have it running yet, but I'm hopeful that tomorrow we will.
Thanks again for all the help and recommendations. I'll report back asap.
Thanks again for all the help and recommendations. I'll report back asap.
The 3 bolts on the IP gear will not all go in if that happens.
Shatmepants
Member
- Messages
- 24
- Reaction score
- 71
It turns out it was a couple of different issues. I don't know what caused what, but the OS in the "rebuilt" IP from Heath was bad and we had a section of burned wires in the wiring harness (buried in the harness). I have no idea what caused the burnt wiring. There were no blown fuses and it was obvious by the corrosion on the bar wire that it had been that way for a very long time.
We installed a new pump (thank you Advance Diesel in Anchorage for the new pump) and I repaired the harness and we finally got the thing started on Friday. I tuned it the best I could, but it still has a light stumble at idle and just off idle, but going down the road it runs nice and smooth with good power. I wish I had time to get it 100% correct, but I had to catch a plane early Saturday morning.
Concerning the TDC offset reset and setting the IP timing, I simply couldn't get things right. I went through the reset procedure a few times, but I simply could not get the value down below 1.9. Obviously, that is way off the -.25 to -.75 mark. So, I tried setting the timing (as it says to do in the manual), but I couldn't get the actual pump timing (as read on the scanner) below 9ish. Again, way off the 3.5 mark. I did get the IP timed to the point that the scanner would read 3.5, but the motor ran terribly. So I did the TDC offset procedure again, then the IP timing read 11ish without touching the IP timing.
Having run out of time, I had to leave it the way it is, but I'd love to know your thoughts on why I can't get the TDC offset and the IP timing within the correct values. My best guess is that it's a timing chain issue, as a few of you mentioned above.
We installed a new pump (thank you Advance Diesel in Anchorage for the new pump) and I repaired the harness and we finally got the thing started on Friday. I tuned it the best I could, but it still has a light stumble at idle and just off idle, but going down the road it runs nice and smooth with good power. I wish I had time to get it 100% correct, but I had to catch a plane early Saturday morning.
Concerning the TDC offset reset and setting the IP timing, I simply couldn't get things right. I went through the reset procedure a few times, but I simply could not get the value down below 1.9. Obviously, that is way off the -.25 to -.75 mark. So, I tried setting the timing (as it says to do in the manual), but I couldn't get the actual pump timing (as read on the scanner) below 9ish. Again, way off the 3.5 mark. I did get the IP timed to the point that the scanner would read 3.5, but the motor ran terribly. So I did the TDC offset procedure again, then the IP timing read 11ish without touching the IP timing.
Having run out of time, I had to leave it the way it is, but I'd love to know your thoughts on why I can't get the TDC offset and the IP timing within the correct values. My best guess is that it's a timing chain issue, as a few of you mentioned above.
Big T
Well-Known Member
When you got it to 3.5, that is when you do the TDC offset, regardless of how it ran. -1.94 is the lowest you can go on TDC Offset. Most say that reading provides optimal performance, but the engine will run considerably louder. My ‘94 is set at -1.94.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
-1.94 is as advanced as you can go before it sets a code on obd1. Obd2 it can go more without getting "stuck" and hard to get back in time. Advanced is probably the best place in AK to get a pump built here in AK.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
IIRC, on the OBD-II, physical mounting of the IP is not as critical for timing. It does need to get close-enough though. Specifically, the computer is going to control actual timing depending on what the logic calls-for at the moment. Physical orientation does make a difference as it allows for a range of advance and the computer figures this out. Moving the IP will change the range of advance that the computer gets to use.
Paveltolz
Доверяй, но проверяй
That’s great to hear that the truck is running smooth enough to drive. Great catch on the harness and the successful repairs there.
FWIW, Physical orientation of the IP is essential to get the base timing to 3.5.
You do the Time Set function on the scanner, the truck stumbles like a drunk for a second and then smooths out.
Check timing and if it isn’t 3.5, adjust as directed.
Once you move the pump to get the timing to read 3.5 then you lock it down. You don’t do another Time Set.
This is when you perform the TDCO set procedures.
A new IP wiring harness can be had from Quadstar if the occasion or angst calls for it.
FWIW, Physical orientation of the IP is essential to get the base timing to 3.5.
You do the Time Set function on the scanner, the truck stumbles like a drunk for a second and then smooths out.
Check timing and if it isn’t 3.5, adjust as directed.
Once you move the pump to get the timing to read 3.5 then you lock it down. You don’t do another Time Set.
This is when you perform the TDCO set procedures.
A new IP wiring harness can be had from Quadstar if the occasion or angst calls for it.
royunion
Active Member
I do not see where the KOKO procedure was done after the IP and CPS install. That MUST be done after getting the engine up to operating temp
It you have lift pump pressure like 15 psi these systems will bleed themselves
See my posts starting at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/down-on-power.52050/post-679517
It you have lift pump pressure like 15 psi these systems will bleed themselves
See my posts starting at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/down-on-power.52050/post-679517
Shatmepants
Member
- Messages
- 24
- Reaction score
- 71
Hi Guys! Thank you all for the additional information. I apologize for not thanking you sooner. I had to head home and get my business caught back up and life has been a whirlwind since.
Anyway, I'm headed back up to Nome in a few days and would like to see if I can get that truck running just a little better. I do realize that I didn't do all of the procedures correctly the first time, but I simply ran out of time and had to leave.
I was looking for clear, concise instructions on how exactly to the the KOKO and TDCO procedures and I came across the instructions below. Does this look like it will cover everything I need to do to get everything set correctly?
From another site:
NOTE - do not attempt this at home without a scantool, kiddies
If scantool gives different TDCO than KOKO, the value obtained from KOKO procedure is correct relative to the actual position of the IP
If timing is to be adjusted, loosen the IP except for the easiest to reach nut - it will hold the Ip in position before and after any adjustment.
With engine at >180degF operating temperature, all DTC's cleared, observe as-found TDCO with a scantool to get your baseline reference - kill the engine, then:
Key On, depress accelerator pedal for not less than 45secs, then release - this gives PCM time do do some housekeeping for the coming event
Key Off for not less than 30secs - PCM powers down, allowing memory to clear, including, and this is important, any driveability parameters
Key On, START the engine - TDCO will reLEARN as soon as Engine Coolant Temp and Intake Air Temp come up to operating temps.
- you may feel the engine hesitate and hear some increased rattle as PCM hunts for Inj Position if timing is way off - may not be any symptom if timing is close
Connect Scantool and note TDCO value in degrees - noting that 1mm movement is about 2.5deg timing change, loosen the nut:
- if less than -0.5deg (more positive) rotate Inj Pump away from turbo-side to increase BTDC timing
- if greater than -1.94deg (more negative) rotate IP towards turbo-side to decrease BTDC timing
Lock the IP down with one nut, do the KoKo thing again - repeat as necessary to get TDCO between -1.54deg and -1.94deg
- you will want TDCO to read above -1.54deg - once it is in that vicinity, then you can adjust TDCO with the scantool by commanding TDCO LEARN, then slowly increase idle till you see the desired value, immediately exiting TDCO LEARN - then recheck TDCO in the monitor-only screen
NOTE: increasing idle above ~1700RPM will give TDCO DTC, which must then be cleared B4 proceeding - timing adjustments do not function unless all DTC's are cleared
Also NOTE - pay no attention to TIMESET or timing readings with OBD2 - if TDCO is correct, timing will read somewhere between +8.5deg and +10deg, which can also depend on ECT and IAT in wintertime - +8.5deg means timing is at low end of acceptable range, +10deg means timing is at high end of acceptable range, or PCM is still calling for advance, which you can see by checking IAT for over 85degF
Lock the Ip down with all three nuts.
Take a final as-left TDCO reading with the scantool for future reference - take the vehicle for several 15min easy start-off runs so PCM can relearn normal driveability parameters.
Any re-LEARN is permanent in that it will not change during normal operation - once PCM learns any TDCO value, takes the KOKO procedure or the scantool to change it
One final thing - do the procedure not more than twice, then drive the vehicle normally for ~15mins so PCM can adjust driveability parameters to the new timing value - some reports indicate that PCM refuses to cooperate if TDCO LEARN is attempted frequently at one sitting, without relearning the other operational parameters
Anyway, I'm headed back up to Nome in a few days and would like to see if I can get that truck running just a little better. I do realize that I didn't do all of the procedures correctly the first time, but I simply ran out of time and had to leave.
I was looking for clear, concise instructions on how exactly to the the KOKO and TDCO procedures and I came across the instructions below. Does this look like it will cover everything I need to do to get everything set correctly?
From another site:
NOTE - do not attempt this at home without a scantool, kiddies
If scantool gives different TDCO than KOKO, the value obtained from KOKO procedure is correct relative to the actual position of the IP
If timing is to be adjusted, loosen the IP except for the easiest to reach nut - it will hold the Ip in position before and after any adjustment.
With engine at >180degF operating temperature, all DTC's cleared, observe as-found TDCO with a scantool to get your baseline reference - kill the engine, then:
Key On, depress accelerator pedal for not less than 45secs, then release - this gives PCM time do do some housekeeping for the coming event
Key Off for not less than 30secs - PCM powers down, allowing memory to clear, including, and this is important, any driveability parameters
Key On, START the engine - TDCO will reLEARN as soon as Engine Coolant Temp and Intake Air Temp come up to operating temps.
- you may feel the engine hesitate and hear some increased rattle as PCM hunts for Inj Position if timing is way off - may not be any symptom if timing is close
Connect Scantool and note TDCO value in degrees - noting that 1mm movement is about 2.5deg timing change, loosen the nut:
- if less than -0.5deg (more positive) rotate Inj Pump away from turbo-side to increase BTDC timing
- if greater than -1.94deg (more negative) rotate IP towards turbo-side to decrease BTDC timing
Lock the IP down with one nut, do the KoKo thing again - repeat as necessary to get TDCO between -1.54deg and -1.94deg
- you will want TDCO to read above -1.54deg - once it is in that vicinity, then you can adjust TDCO with the scantool by commanding TDCO LEARN, then slowly increase idle till you see the desired value, immediately exiting TDCO LEARN - then recheck TDCO in the monitor-only screen
NOTE: increasing idle above ~1700RPM will give TDCO DTC, which must then be cleared B4 proceeding - timing adjustments do not function unless all DTC's are cleared
Also NOTE - pay no attention to TIMESET or timing readings with OBD2 - if TDCO is correct, timing will read somewhere between +8.5deg and +10deg, which can also depend on ECT and IAT in wintertime - +8.5deg means timing is at low end of acceptable range, +10deg means timing is at high end of acceptable range, or PCM is still calling for advance, which you can see by checking IAT for over 85degF
Lock the Ip down with all three nuts.
Take a final as-left TDCO reading with the scantool for future reference - take the vehicle for several 15min easy start-off runs so PCM can relearn normal driveability parameters.
Any re-LEARN is permanent in that it will not change during normal operation - once PCM learns any TDCO value, takes the KOKO procedure or the scantool to change it
One final thing - do the procedure not more than twice, then drive the vehicle normally for ~15mins so PCM can adjust driveability parameters to the new timing value - some reports indicate that PCM refuses to cooperate if TDCO LEARN is attempted frequently at one sitting, without relearning the other operational parameters