Main cap girdle question...

[HighSierra86]

So the general concensus here seems to be that the girdle offered for sale, probably isnt worth using?

The block im using for my build is a 141, which I am told has smaller 10mm main bolts. Does this put the block more at risk for cracks, or less, due to a smaller hole?

 

[great white]

So the general concensus here seems to be that the girdle offered for sale, probably isnt worth using?

The block im using for my build is a 141, which I am told has smaller 10mm main bolts. Does this put the block more at risk for cracks, or less, due to a smaller hole?

depends.

In theory, the smaller bolts leave more material in the web for greater strength and the potential of not cracking.

However, the cap registers are also cracking points (stress risers), so.......:dunno:

 

[vegtech]

just wanteds to ad my pic of my 929 I win.

 

[turbonator]

View attachment 25008just wanteds to ad my pic of my 929 I win.

IMO one of the main reasons for cracking was that the blocks were not cured enough between the casting and the machining, along with poor mixing of ingredients....

look at it like this, gm introduced the 6.2l in the early 80's(1981-82?) but they were working on the project probably since77-78? so the engines were not rushed into service, after full production starts and it was push,push,push.....

same maybe as well with the introduction of the 599... debut of the 6.5l in 1992, so they probably had the blocks cast already in 88-89?.....

after the introduction, they push,push, push and mass produce them=low quality..... it is just theory of mine.... i have seen the same patterns in many different things as well where the first is always the best, then mass production and the quality drops.....

 

[robzombie4551]

So the general concensus here seems to be that the girdle offered for sale, probably isnt worth using?

Don't waste your time or money on home made or aftermarket junk.

There is no true girdle for our motors in the aftermarket and the only way to get a true girdle is to buy a P400 motor.

They will only lighten your wallet and give you a false sense of security.

 

[turbonator]

Don't waste your time or money on home made or aftermarket junk.

There is no true girdle for our motors in the aftermarket and the only way to get a true girdle is to buy a P400 motor.

They will only lighten your wallet and give you a false sense of security.

well chevydiesel has been using the dsg girdle in his race truck now for 3 years with no ill effect so that has to stand for something.... and the truck is the most recorded rear wheel horsepower 6.5l truck out there..... its not like it is a sunday driver......

 

[robzombie4551]

well chevydiesel has been using the dsg girdle in his race truck now for 3 years with no ill effect so that has to stand for something.... and the truck is the most recorded rear wheel horsepower 6.5l truck out there..... its not like it is a sunday driver......

And if you think the girdle is holding it together more power to you.

I'm just stating the facts. they're a farce as far as protection unless you tie in the block and mains, and use the same material as the block for the girdle.

He may have a good block, quality machine work, balanced and blue printed and many other factors.

But to say the DSG girdle is what's keeping it together, show me the proof! You can't and neither can anyone else.

I'm tired of refuting the crap on the market and home brew junk.

The proof is out there all you need to do is look. Please stop defending this and potentionally ruining some elses day by telling them it works.

Ask a qualified H/P machinist and he will tell you the same thing and will tell you that you could actually do more damage with one than without.


When they put one on and blow the bottom end will you pay them for a new engine? of cousre not and you'll probably say it must've been something else.

When you get the proof that they work post away. Otherwise just state that it's your opinion [not fact] that they work.

I'm not trying to start anything with you, and want to me amicable, but I know the truth about girdles and have been a mechanic for over twenty years and will defend the truth about them to save as many people from wasting their money on a false sense of security. And every time this comes up you defend them, probably because you made one and that's fine. But you also have that motor in a truck that probably has 588s with a 2 speed rear. Definetly a different animal altogether.

Let's just agree that we disagree and leave it at that. Post the proof they work and I'll post the proof they don't.








The only way to get a proper girdle for a 6.5 is to purchase a P400

 

[buddy]

The P400 girdle is certainly the best, and that type of girdle being similar material is more important than the type pictured. I don't know that the evidence against the cap girdles is out there either. Diesel Depot is a professional machine shop and they put the girdles on. I realize its more money for them, but I believe it to be a reputable shop and you do get a warranty with it.

This block is not built like all others, seeing as the main webs are level with the block and the main caps stick entirely out. And a lot of them only have two bolts per cap, compared to four. Part of the girdle kit is using studs as well, which are probably superior to the bolts.

Old Chevy gasser with 2 bolt caps cold hold up to all sorts of power when assembled correctly, but this isnt the same. Its more torque at lower RPMs with less fuel, using much different stresses with high compression.

Ford themselves even makes these girdles out of Aluminum that just tie the caps together, for all of their high performance Cast engines.

 

[turbonator]

And if you think the girdle is holding it together more power to you.

I'm just stating the facts. they're a farce as far as protection unless you tie in the block and mains, and use the same material as the block for the girdle.

He may have a good block, quality machine work, balanced and blue printed and many other factors.

But to say the DSG girdle is what's keeping it together, show me the proof! You can't and neither can anyone else.

I'm tired of refuting the crap on the market and home brew junk.

The proof is out there all you need to do is look. Please stop defending this and potentionally ruining some elses day by telling them it works.

Ask a qualified H/P machinist and he will tell you the same thing and will tell you that you could actually do more damage with one than without.


When they put one on and blow the bottom end will you pay them for a new engine? of cousre not and you'll probably say it must've been something else.

When you get the proof that they work post away. Otherwise just state that it's your opinion [not fact] that they work.

I'm not trying to start anything with you, and want to me amicable, but I know the truth about girdles and have been a mechanic for over twenty years and will defend the truth about them to save as many people from wasting their money on a false sense of security. And every time this comes up you defend them, probably because you made one and that's fine. But you also have that motor in a truck that probably has 588s with a 2 speed rear. Definetly a different animal altogether.

Let's just agree that we disagree and leave it at that. Post the proof they work and I'll post the proof they don't.








The only way to get a proper girdle for a 6.5 is to purchase a P400

lets be clear here.... never once in my post did i say that somebody should buy the dsg girdle because it keeps chevydiesels truck from blowing up...

all i said is that he has one on his truck and it is still pulling the 1/4 mile after 3 years.... i am not sure why you continue to say that our 5 pin girdle does not tie the mains to the block, it is pretty clear that the last 2 mains are actually the front and back of the motor...
so in theory the girdle is tied to the block in the front and the back, which from what i have seen does not experiance cracking issues.... thus is quite solid... also you continue to apply gasser tech into the diesel world.... gassers spin huge RPM's diesels spin 3500-3600rpm.... which IMO is not comparible to gassers at all......
you can bad-mouth what we have done all you want, it makes little or no difference to me what you say, it works for us and thats good for us... also just to clarify for you, our dumper is running .620 gears with an sm-465..... so IMO it actually has to pull harder to make up for the large 2nd-3rd gap and the 3rd- 4th gap...
so i guess its time for you to save your pennies and buy yourself a p-400 to have a "real girdle"..... me i will continue to use seasoned motors and parts because thats what i can afford, and i will also continue to be considerate of other people that cant afford the p-400 as well...:thumbsup:

 

[turbonator]

The P400 girdle is certainly the best, and that type of girdle being similar material is more important than the type pictured. I don't know that the evidence against the cap girdles is out there either. Diesel Depot is a professional machine shop and they put the girdles on. I realize its more money for them, but I believe it to be a reputable shop and you do get a warranty with it.

This block is not built like all others, seeing as the main webs are level with the block and the main caps stick entirely out. And a lot of them only have two bolts per cap, compared to four. Part of the girdle kit is using studs as well, which are probably superior to the bolts.

Old Chevy gasser with 2 bolt caps cold hold up to all sorts of power when assembled correctly, but this isnt the same. Its more torque at lower RPMs with less fuel, using much different stresses with high compression.

Ford themselves even makes these girdles out of Aluminum that just tie the caps together, for all of their high performance Cast engines.
View attachment 25081

it seems strange to me that they would use aluminum, as it has been stated here more than once about the expansion rates of different metals.... one thing, if aluminum is an "approved" metal for block girdles, steel should be fine as it does not expand or shrink as much as aluminum....

 

[DZZ71]

So the general concensus here seems to be that the girdle offered for sale, probably isnt worth using?

The block im using for my build is a 141, which I am told has smaller 10mm main bolts. Does this put the block more at risk for cracks, or less, due to a smaller hole?

Does your 141 have squirters? I have a spare 141 with no cracks and has the 12mm outter bolt holes with squirters...... My twin turbo test engine was built off a 929 with lots of ugly cracks. Not to sure how many miles i will get out of it. Maybe the drasticly lowered compression will help ease the stress on the already weakend bottem end i donno. So far i have over 7000 km on it since the rebuild with no problems. As for the other post stating that you could actually do more damage with a gurdle than without one. How would it make it worse? I could kinda see how it would be little help but the making it worse that i dont understand. Anyways heres a pic of the block im running right now "Ticking Time Bomb"

 

[robzombie4551]

Originally Posted by buddy
The P400 girdle is certainly the best, and that type of girdle being similar material is more important than the type pictured. I don't know that the evidence against the cap girdles is out there either. Diesel Depot is a professional machine shop and they put the girdles on. I realize its more money for them, but I believe it to be a reputable shop and you do get a warranty with it.

This block is not built like all others, seeing as the main webs are level with the block and the main caps stick entirely out. And a lot of them only have two bolts per cap, compared to four. Part of the girdle kit is using studs as well, which are probably superior to the bolts.

Old Chevy gasser with 2 bolt caps cold hold up to all sorts of power when assembled correctly, but this isnt the same. Its more torque at lower RPMs with less fuel, using much different stresses with high compression.

Ford themselves even makes these girdles out of Aluminum that just tie the caps together, for all of their high performance Cast engines.
Attachment 25081
it seems strange to me that they would use aluminum, as it has been stated here more than once about the expansion rates of different metals.... one thing, if aluminum is an "approved" metal for block girdles, steel should be fine as it does not expand or shrink as much as aluminum....

They get away with aluminun because they are a hat and sit on the main caps and are not tied to the block. They only reduce the front to back rocking by spreading the load to all the caps. They do nothing to increase torsional rigidity, only a full girdle will do that.

I'm done trying to explain this topic, as said in the movie cool hand luke,,SOME MEN YOU JUST CAN"T REACH.

 

[turbonator]

They get away with aluminun because they are a hat and sit on the main caps and are not tied to the block. They only reduce the front to back rocking by spreading the load to all the caps. They do nothing to increase torsional rigidity, only a full girdle will do that.

I'm done trying to explain this topic, as said in the movie cool hand luke,,SOME MEN YOU JUST CAN"T REACH.

thats good, as you dont bring anything to this discussion other than negativity anyways..... so far all the pics and commentary you guys have contributed has not been helpful in this thread....
instead of bashing, contribute towards development and maybe someone can use the info and move towards a goal instead of being told no its junk, crap,etc...
like i said previously.... we cant afford, along with lots of others, to go out and buy a p-400 to have the "real" main girdle... so we work with used blocks and pieces, and make due with what we can.....

 

[buddy]

They get away with aluminun because they are a hat and sit on the main caps and are not tied to the block. They only reduce the front to back rocking by spreading the load to all the caps. They do nothing to increase torsional rigidity, only a full girdle will do that.

I think reducing the front to back stress load on the caps is something we want to do and is a cause of the cracking in our instance. Because of the high torque at low RPM that exerts a backward force on the whole thing.

In solid mechanics, torsion is the twisting of an object due to an applied torque. In circular sections, the resultant shearing stress is perpendicular to the radius.

So the pistons apply a torque on the crank, and the resultant stress is to the back of the engine. Thats not the only stress on the main web/cap but one of them. The torsional stress from one side of the block to the other that may want to twist the webs would be helped by the full girdle that ties to the block at the pan rail. But we dont know if that is what cracks the webs or another stress.

Thats why I think its not good to dismiss any idea until it is proven.