03 Cummins Dead

[BoostN]

My buddies 03 Cummins went into the shop last week to get diagnostic for injectors (as we were pretty sure of the problem). So the mechanic tore it down, and apparently the motor is toast.

From the Mechanic to my friend to me:

All pistons are "Charbroiled" (2 of which is "burn up" completely), two pushrods bent, and the list goes on.

It's been hard starting for about 8 months now. He was on a camping trip a few weekends ago in the woods, and it wouldn't start the next morning. So stranded in the woods, he used some ether to get it to start (mistake #1). The engine ran away and would not shut off reving over 5K. It finally went down it's self. So towed to the Diesel shop and this is where he stands.

We've come to the conclusion to get a complete engine. My question is, did the ether kill this motor?

 

[Pepperidge]

ummm... I believe so

the over rev/runaway caused the motor problems...JMHO...


never use ether ...use a small amount of WD40 if you absolutely have to...

 

[BudTX]

Yep. Shoot up a diesel's intake with enough flammable liquid = runaway.

 

[btfarm]

Damn... Wish I'da been there to hear that!

 

[BoostN]

Me to Mike..

We're in search of a engine. The old one will be a good paperweight though.

I'll get pictures as soon as we get it swapped over.

 

[96 OILBURNER]

Probably would have been more appropriate to title the thread "03 Cummins murdered".

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Probably would have been more appropriate to title the thread "03 Cummins murdered".

:haha:



wow. I don't think its physically possible to start a cummins on ether do to the intake heater. Hell if you absolutely had to like you said the least you could do is unplug the heater so it doesn't look like this:

 

[Unit453]

Yep. Shoot up a diesel's intake with enough flammable liquid = runaway.

I'd like to know exactly why.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

I'd like to know exactly why.

The key to that is "enough" If the engine just has glow plugs you can wait till the "WTS" light goes out, spray a VERY SMALL amount(no more than a second) into the air cleaner and fire it up.

The problem here I see is two-fold.
-The first being that the Cummins diesel has a grid heater(think mini toaster oven) after the intake horn instead of glow plugs. By spray the HIGHLY flammable ether into the intake stream the ether hits the grid heater and BANG. Instant explosion. Then you factor in cylinder X is completing its exhaust stroke and beginning the intake stroke when the intake valve pops open. Now you have a giant fireball/flamethrower firing onto the piston.

-The real killer here is this. If too much ether was used trying to start this engine or "enough" was sprayed in to become soaked into the filter, this would have supplied a small, but constant feed of ether into the engine. Leading the engine to not only start, but keep the fire going and eventually, due to the highly combustible and volatile nature of ether cause the engine to over-rev real fast.


Have you ever used an ether spray start system on a diesel MADE for using it? If you spray ether while the engine is running you will notice that the engine will rev up for a few seconds, then slow down. Even with a very small amount of ether. Now imagine it in a larger dose and UNCONTROLLED amount. Then add the intake heater. In a way it almost comes across as the "perfect storm"

 

[Cumminalong]

WOW!

That's not cool!

5000K RPM?...yeah, that's WAY over the overspeed limit on a stock cummins.

From the factory it's designed for an ovespeed of 4200 RPM's for a max of 15 seconds.

At 4500 RPM's is where you start tossing rods and bending the crank.

As previously stated, ether in the intake is not good. As soon as it hits that grid heater....FOOM! Up it goes.

 

[GM Guy]

ether will not cause a runaway if used properly. There is no way to use it properly if the GPs or grid heater is still hooked up. bad idea overall.

My boss, my dad, and I all deal with old wore out junk, so that means that compression is a tad low. so we shoot a shot for a second or two, then start cranking, then we give it short, second long or less "whisps", so if it fires and it is cold, the whisps will keep it going. each whisp only increases rpm by a 100 or two.

Moral of story: properly used, ether can be safely used to start an engine, unproperly used, shit can blow!

 

[BoostN]

Well, he found a motor complete with everything for $5300 to his door. He's got to take it to the diesel shop so they can swap them.

 

[BoostN]

Also, I want to ask:

They have quoted him between $2000-$2500 for labor charges. This includes tear down of the old motor and diagnostics, along with pulling it and swapping the new one in as they found out the old one is toast.

This sounds steep to me...

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Also, I want to ask:

They have quoted him between $2000-$2500 for labor charges. This includes tear down of the old motor and diagnostics, along with pulling it and swapping the new one in as they found out the old one is toast.

This sounds steep to me...

That sounds pretty steep to me as well. As a professional diesel shop I would expect one person(with the proper tools) to be able to pull this swap off in say 2 days? You factor in a typical 8 hour workday. At $2250(average) labor cost, there charging him about $140 an hour. It depends on how fast they can get it done...

 

[Cumminalong]

Swapping the motor may take 2 days, but tearing one down and seeing what's wrong, diagnosing it and possibly rebuilding it is another story. And you aren't doing it by yourself.

Just to assemble a motor alone that gets brought to us in pieces, we charge $350 - $500 depending on the year and components.

Is the motor complete with fuel system, turbo, ECM, etc.? Or does all that need to be swapped from the old motor?

$2000 - $2500 isn't unreasonable.

What people don't understand is the "right tools" part. There are a ton of specialized tools that we buy for certain projects. Those tools aren't cheap. Warrantying work isn't cheap. Electronics aren't cheap. Going to school to be a tech isn't cheap.

I challenge the everyday home mechanic to do it in 2 days with what he has on hand and let me know how it goes. Then, let me know the cost of all the tools you have to use, the garage you pay for, the time spent looking for miscellaneous parts from the manufacturers that you've spent numerous hours on the phone and on the road with to build relationships so you can offer the services.

You'll see that the figure quoted isn't so unreasonable.

 

[BoostN]

Swapping the motor may take 2 days, but tearing one down and seeing what's wrong, diagnosing it and possibly rebuilding it is another story. And you aren't doing it by yourself.

Just to assemble a motor alone that gets brought to us in pieces, we charge $350 - $500 depending on the year and components.

Is the motor complete with fuel system, turbo, ECM, etc.? Or does all that need to be swapped from the old motor?

$2000 - $2500 isn't unreasonable.

What people don't understand is the "right tools" part. There are a ton of specialized tools that we buy for certain projects. Those tools aren't cheap. Warrantying work isn't cheap. Electronics aren't cheap. Going to school to be a tech isn't cheap.

I challenge the everyday home mechanic to do it in 2 days with what he has on hand and let me know how it goes. Then, let me know the cost of all the tools you have to use, the garage you pay for, the time spent looking for miscellaneous parts from the manufacturers that you've spent numerous hours on the phone and on the road with to build relationships so you can offer the services.

You'll see that the figure quoted isn't so unreasonable.

That's why I asked. I wasn't sure on the prices he got. This motor he bought has around 61K on it. Hopefully this one will do him well.

 

[Cumminalong]

If it was just a straight motor swap on something like a 12V, that's not too bad. I would do that for $1500 or so, if it was one complete motor for another.

Now, on a '98.5 - '02 VP44 truck, yeah, you're looking at $2000 - $2250.

If you roll in with a PowerStroke, you better have the platinum card.

 

[btfarm]

Just as an aside question... IF you had everything you needed on hand, tools, all parts and fluids ready to go. How many hours would a motor swap like this take for 2 good mechanics working together?
I'm certainly not questioning the quoted price from a business sense because all the things pointed out to justify it are valid, just a time query.
I ask because a good friend and I used to do that alot on gas engines for some side (racing) money (before heavy electronic controls) and frequently we have totalled around 3 hours from rolling into the shop until the new motor was 1st fired up, working non stop as a type of contest like a race team (which we also were).

 

[Mad Maxx]

Shit, Labor Rates in my Area are $125/hour, so that Price Sounds "normal" to me.

 

[Cumminalong]

Just as an aside question... IF you had everything you needed on hand, tools, all parts and fluids ready to go. How many hours would a motor swap like this take for 2 good mechanics working together?
I'm certainly not questioning the quoted price from a business sense because all the things pointed out to justify it are valid, just a time query.
I ask because a good friend and I used to do that alot on gas engines for some side (racing) money (before heavy electronic controls) and frequently we have totalled around 3 hours from rolling into the shop until the new motor was 1st fired up, working non stop as a type of contest like a race team (which we also were).

Again, it would depend on the year and engine model.

94 - 98 12V (all mechanical), you could have it out and in about 6 hrs if you were haulin'. 8 - 9 is more reasonable.

98.5 - 02 24V, more like 10 - 12 hrs.

03+ CR, 8 - 10 hrs.

The main reason it takes so long is the whole front of the truck has to come off, including the AC condenser.