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Oil inspection report

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Overkill Is Underrated
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Location
Stevenson, Wa.
Hi all,

Just an FYI and I'm putting it in the performance section since the report is on an engine with a few mods...

I got my first ever oil report back from Blackstone Labs. The engine is a recently rebuilt Optimizor out of a military Hummer from Teds Trucks. One of my main concerns other than possible catastrophic rebuild quality due to an unknown rebuilder and general idea of wear was the install of ARP headstuds and getting them sealed.

I have no indication of any leaking so far (after one year), such as oil in the coolant or foam in the CDR valve so I felt pretty good, but still wanted to see it in the report.
They did say that they found a bit of an indication but it was so minute that it could be from something else or was so light that i'm not going to worry about it (after all, we're talking parts-per-million here) but I'll keep an eye on it.

So that's good news, really and the other good news is that there is only regular wear signs, so the rebuild must have been a quality job as far as bearing install, etc. But the really cool thing was the very low insoluble count and high flashpoint. Which means that there is very,very little soot and no fuel in the oil so the rings are sealing very well. I'd really like to see a comparison with Total Seal rings (and who knows, it could have been rebuilt with Total Seal rings for all I know).

The only odd thing is that the oil was a lot thicker than it should have been. Total mystery to me on that one so if anyone has some experience with that, chime in.

I attached the report and would love any advice or info from people in the know on these things!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105390/The truck stop pics/93 GMC-020116.pdf
 
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That oil in these engines is usually 3,000 miles, not 5,000. The heat cycles it went through along with potassium is what thickened it up. Due next 2 oil changes at 2500 and watch the labs. Posting them back on this thread would be good.
 
Right on Will, I appreciate that info.

I'm definitely going to do an oil bypass system in the future. Any experience with that?
 
Will L. said:
That oil in these engines is usually 3,000 miles, not 5,000. The heat cycles it went through along with potassium is what thickened it up. Due next 2 oil changes at 2500 and watch the labs. Posting them back on this thread would be good.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify Will, I think the oil change is 1786 miles, the engine has 5000 miles since rebuild.
 
NVW said:
Just to clarify Will, I think the oil change is 1786 miles, the engine has 5000 miles since rebuild.
Click to expand...
Correct.
But, I always understood the change interval to be 5000 miles. I've tried to do it at 3000 or so.
 
From this report I would check the air filter, and each connection on the intake system including leaks at the CDR system. Silicone for 2000 miles is higher than my heavy hand with RTV gasket in a tube. Dust leak possible.

You have destroyed the oil in under 2000 miles. :confused: Even I take note here. It's out of grade from a 40 weight to a 50 weight hot. Do you run this truck hard or tow?

Potassium?! You got a hit on that - I get 0 period.

Pressure tester time on the cooling system. How did you seal the wet threads on the ARP studs? Word here Coolant in oil will destroy bearings faster than clunker bomb. Even suspect coolant from a bad dream one needs to be testing the system...

The mod that stands out above the ATT is the "Veggie burning". Perhaps this fuel is the source of the sodium/potassium. Salty Fries anyone?

I'd like to see "soot" as a number like I get. If the engine smokes black a lot soot could be the cause of the oil thickening. So can overheating the oil.

Unburned Biodiesel and Veggie oil do not show up as "fuel" in UOA. You could flood the crankcase with quarts of B99 say due to use with a DPF emissions truck and still have not hit on fuel. Wear metals and thinning of the oil may show up at this extreme dilution. #2 diesel will evaporate back out of the oil. Veggie oil and B99 will not evaporate back out of the oil. Note Alternate fuels require a shorter oil change interval due to fuel dilution so Bypass oil filters are a waste. You could get away with the severe service 2500 mile oil change by the owner's manual - but at this time you are not.

I used to run B99, but, I don't anymore so the samples below are on #2 diesel.

I Run the higher 50 weight out of the gate as it is so hot here I can loose oil pressure at a hot idle. Gapless rings look like this on 15w50 Mystik. Note Soot = 0 and the smoking dirty 1995 non-gapless burb engine was higher:

1993gapless_rings.jpg

Here is the limits of conventional oil on the 1995 regular ring engine, hot summer with a spool valve ATT setup. Synthetic oil was used after the next change as heat was ruining the oil. This is 15w40 oil and normally in the 14 range!

conventional_limits.jpg
 
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1786 I missed- I was thinking 5,000 so I didn't read the top, just the stats.

Do your next oil sample at 1000 miles. There's something off. Your getting something in the oil, most likely via your rings.

What fuel are you running?
What additive and how much?
What coolant?

The silicone is 1 of 2 things, sealant or dirt getting passed your air filter- hole in the intake pre turbo, dirty or crappy filter. If it's sealant your future reading will show a progressive drop- but don't wait, go look for a leak. Do the spray can test while it's running if you can't see anything.

On the bypass filter- the better filtered, the longer the oil will last. Centrifuge is always the best, just painful on day 1. A conventional filter cannot help what ever is killing the viscocity in your oil. Depending on what is causing it, if it's a liquid additive in fuel, the centrifuge might remove it. The only way to know that would be sending your used oil through a centrifuge and sampling afterwards.

I've research centrifuges a ton, I will be buying 1 from Leroy, but making quick disconnect design so on a weekend I can pop it off the truck and spin out my old motor oil using an external pump. Then using the oil as fuel additive.
 
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WarWagon said:
From this report I would check the air filter, and each connection on the intake system including leaks at the CDR system. Silicone for 2000 miles is higher than my heavy hand with RTV gasket in a tube. Dust leak possible.

You have destroyed the oil in under 2000 miles. :confused: Even I take note here. It's out of grade from a 40 weight to a 50 weight hot. Do you run this truck hard or tow?

Potassium?! You got a hit on that - I get 0 period.

Pressure tester time on the cooling system. How did you seal the wet threads on the ARP studs? Word here Coolant in oil will destroy bearings faster than clunker bomb. Even suspect coolant from a bad dream one needs to be testing the system...

The mod that stands out above the ATT is the "Veggie burning". Perhaps this fuel is the source of the sodium/potassium. Salty Fries anyone?

I'd like to see "soot" as a number like I get. If the engine smokes black a lot soot could be the cause of the oil thickening. So can overheating the oil.

Unburned Biodiesel and Veggie oil do not show up as "fuel" in UOA. You could flood the crankcase with quarts of B99 say due to use with a DPF emissions truck and still have not hit on fuel. Wear metals and thinning of the oil may show up at this extreme dilution. #2 diesel will evaporate back out of the oil. Veggie oil and B99 will not evaporate back out of the oil. Note Alternate fuels require a shorter oil change interval due to fuel dilution so Bypass oil filters are a waste. You could get away with the severe service 2500 mile oil change by the owner's manual - but at this time you are not.

I used to run B99, but, I don't anymore so the samples below are on #2 diesel.

I Run the higher 50 weight out of the gate as it is so hot here I can loose oil pressure at a hot idle. Gapless rings look like this on 15w50 Mystik. Note Soot = 0 and the smoking dirty 1995 non-gapless burb engine was higher:

View attachment 47427

Here is the limits of conventional oil on the 1995 regular ring engine, hot summer with a spool valve ATT setup. Synthetic oil was used after the next change as heat was ruining the oil. This is 15w40 oil and normally in the 14 range!

View attachment 47428
Click to expand...
Thanks for all that info, Warwagon!

I will check the intake, that should be easy enough. But the headstuds? Not so much. I used the recomended GM 12346004 sealant that nobody wants to use because it's too expensive. And it is, but I figured for $20 to solve a problem? Sign me up.

This is a freshly rebuilt engine. I don't know how new, but it still had assembly lube in it (that DEFINITELY will throw the readings off) so it's pretty fresh. Having said that, the Potassium was the only thing that bothered me but it's such a slight rise from average that they couldn't even determine that it was antifreeze for sure. That and the fact that there was no water present at all means that at the very least, I won't worry (too much) about it right now. Re-doing the headstuds is not an option at this time.

And you know what? I had totally forgot to factor in the veggie oil. I don't think I even mentioned it when I submitted the sample. I should have and I will next time. I've been running it for so long, I don't even think about it as a thing. So I'm glad you mentioned it, it's likely a big factor here. Salty fries, indeed.

As for soot, this engine will puff a bit of grey at first start up but clears right away and it's actually very hard to get black on acceleration at all. I'll be working to get more fuel to it in future mods.

Will L. said:
1786 I missed- I was thinking 5,000 so I didn't read the top, just the stats.

Do your next oil sample at 1000 miles. There's something off. Your getting something in the oil, most likely via your rings.

What fuel are you running?
What additive and how much?
What coolant?

The silicone is 1 of 2 things, sealant or dirt getting passed your air filter- hole in the intake pre turbo, dirty or crappy filter. If it's sealant your future reading will show a progressive drop- but don't wait, go look for a leak. Do the spray can test while it's running if you can't see anything.

On the bypass filter- the better filtered, the longer the oil will last. Centrifuge is always the best, just painful on day 1. A conventional filter cannot help what ever is killing the viscocity in your oil. Depending on what is causing it, if it's a liquid additive in fuel, the centrifuge might remove it. The only way to know that would be sending your used oil through a centrifuge and sampling afterwards.

I've research centrifuges a ton, I will be buying 1 from Leroy, but making quick disconnect design so on a weekend I can pop it off the truck and spin out my old motor oil using an external pump. Then using the oil as fuel additive.
Click to expand...

This has, of course, got me thinking of many different things. But I'm reserving my panic until I see a trend considering the newness of the engine. But I will be changing and sampling sooner next time.

My fuel is pump diesel and WVO (Filter: gravity->centrifuge->paper element, then paper again on-board before reaching FFM)

No oil additive at all, Stanyne power fuel additive

Coolant is standard NAPA green

Air filter is new S&B from Leroy with only a few thousand miles of highway driving with very little dirty driving

I've used WD-40 for the spray can test before, do you suggest something different?

The lab ran the oil through a centrifuge and got .3% insolubles where .6% is acceptable along with no water at all and .5% fuel where 2% is acceptable. So if the Potassium and Sodium was coolant, wouldn't water be present too? And if the rings were suspect, wouldn't there be insolubles (soot) and fuel present too? It sounds like the culprits may be new engine/veggie oil/possible pre-turbo intake leak?
 
I think your on the right track now.

WarWagon close your eyes for the next sentence so you don't drive up here to punch me in the mouth...
I like veggie oil and biofuels. But quit running it for now, until you get 12k or so on it.

Yes wd40 works good. It just collects dirt afterwards, so clean it off afterwards.
 
Not just as a factor, let the bearings pattern and rings seat first. The added lube will keep the micro edges from wiping off so quick. You always want them to seat as soon as possible. You want to have a nice wide surface so it has more material to spread the load across.
 
One more thing occurred to me on the coolant thing.
Like Warwagon said, I was concerned about any coolant destroying my bearings. If there was a significant enough amount to be causing any harm, I should have seen a big number in bearing particles (lead? aluminum? copper?), but they were all within a tick or two of the averages.
I mean crap, it even showed a point of titanium. Where the hell would THAT come from? But the bearings looked to be ok.
 
Right. The concearn is if you are just starting to seep in a tiny amount of coolant now. Then the leak worsens to the point that there is enough there to measure- and damage bearings.
It's not a panic now thing, it's watch it and if something goes on be ready to shut it down before parts get damaged.

But it's a fresh build, and playing with alternative fuel throws things wacky. So get to normal and watch it close.
 
For what it is worth, by the P-400's first 2,000 miles I was on something like my 4'th oil change as I did not want to keep break-in crud circulating any longer than necessary. Over time, I increased the interval from 1K miles out to 3.5K with an analysis at each change. Currently am around 15K miles on the motor and am not going longer than 3,500 miles on any batch of oil as the metal wear is still showing that it is not time to extend the interval yet.

Regarding a bypass filter, can affirm it is a HUGE benefit for particulate matter (larger than 2 microns on average) as I had excessive metal contamination early in the P-400's life and were it not for the bypass filter, we are confident that the damage would have spread to the whole motor. Fortunately the damage was limited to just the bottom-end (don't ask for the full story as I am still not ready to tell ;) ). As noted, a bypass filter will not do anything for chemical contamination or very fine stuff like soot.

Regarding the possibility of coolant contamination, can periodically pull off the CDR and see if there is any condensation inside of it (don't ask now I might know this ;) ).
 
All motor oils have additives designed to keep the carbon (soot) in suspension so that it is in the oil, not sticking to the bearings and journals. That's why filters and centrifuges can not remove it. Even without the additives, separating it is not a quick task. That's why you change it in time. Too long and the quantity in suspension is too much and it thickens the oil. Hmm, think we just saw that somewhere..;)
That how the gapless rings work- stopping carbon from getting in the oil. It's just his are bypassing because they are not seated yet. Throw in a little vegetable soup and bingo.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU DO NOT USE PEANUT OIL! I worked for the test monkey retailer doing all the peanut oil testing done by Unical suppliers and we had to buy engines for all kinds of municipalities here. When I saw the national report come out I tried to blow the whistle, and got swept under the rug. I am the guy that compiled the damage data, and what went on the report was false. Something in peanuts not in other oil made the oil acidic, I can't remember what it was now. Getting old sucks sometimes.
 
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