oil change indicators on newer cars?

[schiker]

I had a friend tell me his 2014 Honda has an oil change indicator. And it did not appear to be just on hours/timer/milage.

How do they work? I assumed they have some algorithm that accumulates time but its more than just running hours. I guess it uses a similar algorithm to the current status mpg. Maybe keeps time at temperature and load with factors for cold starts?

OR does it consider viscosity via oil pressure with comparison to rpm and temperature?

As a side note I have gone to changing my oil at earliest convenient time after I burn ~ 200 gallons of fuel . I haven't really looked at how many miles I am getting in between for a while. I assume its a little over ~ 3200 miles if I average 16mpg.

Would be a little over ......
@ 12 mpg = 2,400 miles.
@ 15 mpg = 3,000 miles
@ 17 mpg = 3,400 miles
@ 19 mpg = 3,800 miles

 

[DieselCash]

Read this, it explains it a little.

http://www.johnsautospa.com/News-and-Tips-How-Oil-Change-Indicators-Work.html

 

[WarWagon]

Read this, it explains it a little.

http://www.johnsautospa.com/News-and-Tips-How-Oil-Change-Indicators-Work.html

That link more or less SUCKS! GM's oil life system is more involved than they give it credit for as far as accuracy. Combined with UOA we found it to be fairly accurate with some oil life left on the table for a fleet of 600 company pickups (generally 4.3 V6) and later our 2008 Duramax towing. No, it doesn't catch an imploded air filter dumping in dirt, Biodiesel oil contamination, etc: however this is what UOA is for.

Prior to this system fuel burned, although impractical, was the best known way to determine oil life. Heat is such a big factor in oil life that lots of oil is wasted on conservative oil changes and the reason for light and heavy duty oil change charts. We were changing oil at every 5000 miles for the fleet prior to GM's oil life system and found that when the system came out that we were bang on with that mileage as that's when the light tripped. Well UOA already gave us the general miles to change the oil at. We were also getting 250K + out of the engines in the oilfield.

The monitoring system did two things: ended the 3000 mile oil wasting oil change mindset and caught/reported the oddball early oil change needed rigs due to high temps or extended idling. Trust, but, verify with UOA. IMO GM's system is one of the more accurate ones out there. Again the goal is not to waste oil. Combined with the UOA it saves money and alerts you to issues like intake dirt leaks, coolant, cracked and scuffed pistons... Saves money as it's $100 to change the oil in a Duramax and that comes out of your bottom line if the oil change isn't needed. Cheap insurance my ass! I'd rather take my wife to dinner than excessively change the oil.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/77/gm's-oil-life-system-improves-timing-of-oil-change

OOPS!

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...-owners-to-need-for-more-frequent-oil-changes

 

[schiker]

OK, revolution count would tell how many times the oil had been "sheared" and kind of sorta would tell how many times it had been pumped through the engine as the oil pump is driven by revolutions of the crankshaft. It would be easy to take a few factors like temp, fuelrate, and speed etc to have a correction factor so that the actual number of revolutions could be manipulated for environment and conditions.

As long as the engine is kept in its normal operating range fuel burn I think is a pretty good measure at least better than miles driven. I agree temperature is a big factor cold as well as hot. Should be fairly easy to correct with programming except for synthetic vs dino oil.

 

[hookedup50]

My Chevy traverse got recalled for to lengthy change intervals, causing cam damage. They reflashed the computer, but to late, it was consuming oil. I traded that in a while back, but a new recall comes in weekly. My 07 Colorado will go a year without the change oil message coming on. I change that at 5000k. I never had UOA done on that truck, but always been curious as to amount of oil life I am dumping. My 6.5 is my only truck that I send the used oil out. I have not found the max mileage yet as my truck looks like my avatar more often than driven. I am old school and have mistrust of manufacturers telling me when to change oil electronicly, as they are in the business of selling more vehicles. WW's input does give me some confidence in this matter though.

 

[tanman_2006]

In my dmax I have been using solely the change indicator. No issues yet, even heavy towing I get 12k out of a change. Seen 15k plenty. Sent in a couple samples and they came back serviceable so I don't get too concerned when the light comes on. Its been 110k miles now and 260k total.

Been using it on my wife's 03 and it hits 7,500 every time.

I wish they had a synthetic vs conventional option.

 

[btfarm]

The oil life monitor has been very reliable for me on the last 4 HD trucks and 3 gasser SUVs.

 

[tanman_2006]

Good indicator right there, you put a lot of miles on your vehicles.

 

[Burning oil]

Speaking of oil samples have you guys seen this http://leroydiesel.com/products/lubricheck-oil-analyzer/

 

[WarWagon]

Speaking of oil samples have you guys seen this http://leroydiesel.com/products/lubricheck-oil-analyzer/

The TDR, Turbo Diesel Register, Issue 81 page 48 discusses this and flatly called it a "snake oil sensor". That issue also discusses the GM oil life system. I will disagree with TDR's advice on skipping UOA by just changing the oil more often. That's like burying your head in the sand and missing vital engine ruining problems like cracked intake parts causing high silicon in the oil, antifreeze, blah, blah, blah. So their opinion appears biased from the start by recommending against proven UOA so YMMV.

Some of the hot rods I have built have flat out destroyed their engine oil and in one case I had to switch to synthetic so the oil could take the heat. Without UOA I would be ruining the engine on conventional oil. In a perfect world where nothing goes wrong on "stock" things UOA doesn't pay off. But in this world UOA can tell you what is going on and possibly save you money.

That said the "tool" doesn't tell me what is going on with the oil and this is useful info - like did I leave the turbo clamp loose for a dirt leak, have an antifreeze leak, changing the oil soon enough, not overheating or otherwise exceeding the limits of engine oil. Further when the 2008 DPF neutered oil came out I got miserable UOA changing the oil weekly, every 3000 miles, towing with the 1993. (This was also adding 1 quart every 500 miles!) I had to find different and better oil to run than the Shell Rotella as TBN was nearly used up with little margin to run another day. They have since reformulated the oil due to these exact problems fleet owners had.

And now I have a new issue: yearly oil changes with low miles on some things. Miles so low that any UOA is pointless.

 

[WarWagon]

My Chevy traverse got recalled for to lengthy change intervals, causing cam damage. They reflashed the computer, but to late, it was consuming oil. I traded that in a while back, but a new recall comes in weekly. My 07 Colorado will go a year without the change oil message coming on. I change that at 5000k. I never had UOA done on that truck, but always been curious as to amount of oil life I am dumping. My 6.5 is my only truck that I send the used oil out. I have not found the max mileage yet as my truck looks like my avatar more often than driven. I am old school and have mistrust of manufacturers telling me when to change oil electronicly, as they are in the business of selling more vehicles. WW's input does give me some confidence in this matter though.

This is more of a design defect than the Oil Life system's fault. Also linked another Oil life runs too long above. Regardless with ANY system you should send in a sample now and then to see how things are doing. The worst unexpected surprise we got was the "new" oil being worse than the old oil in a known older engine. So systems made today will not gracefully handle future EPA FUBAR oil changes.

EPA and CAFE are at odds with engine life and no one gives a damn about how much oil the engine uses unless it fails emissions. Look at "the OEM knows best BS" going on for 5W-20 in a Dodge minivan 3.8L V-6. Engine used 5W-30 from the get go and suddenly uses 5W-20 in newer years. Uses is correct as it drinks the 5W-20 like no day tomorrow and frequently runs out of oil between oil changes! Put 5W-30 in it and oil consumption magically stops. One strike against the thinner oil IMO on a engine that wasn't made for it.

"Don't use 20W-50." Says the 350 gasser manual. "Watch Me!" and do so for 150K+ trouble free miles. Sadly it isn't as high zinc anymore as it was. Engineers sitting in MI worried about -40 below ignoring the AZ test track - just look at AC performance and I say again ignoring the AZ test track.

At the end of the day I send in UOA samples and know for sure what is going on in my engine for my specific conditions.

 

[btfarm]

As Smokey Yunick said way back in the early '70s when synthetic oil was just making it's self known "I don't know what they charge for that stuff but it should be at least twice what it is..."

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

This is more of a design defect than the Oil Life system's fault. Also linked another Oil life runs too long above. Regardless with ANY system you should send in a sample now and then to see how things are doing. The worst unexpected surprise we got was the "new" oil being worse than the old oil in a known older engine. So systems made today will not gracefully handle future EPA FUBAR oil changes.

EPA and CAFE are at odds with engine life and no one gives a damn about how much oil the engine uses unless it fails emissions. Look at "the OEM knows best BS" going on for 5W-20 in a Dodge minivan 3.8L V-6. Engine used 5W-30 from the get go and suddenly uses 5W-20 in newer years. Uses is correct as it drinks the 5W-20 like no day tomorrow and frequently runs out of oil between oil changes! Put 5W-30 in it and oil consumption magically stops. One strike against the thinner oil IMO on a engine that wasn't made for it.

"Don't use 20W-50." Says the 350 gasser manual. "Watch Me!" and do so for 150K+ trouble free miles. Sadly it isn't as high zinc anymore as it was. Engineers sitting in MI worried about -40 below ignoring the AZ test track - just look at AC performance and I say again ignoring the AZ test track.

At the end of the day I send in UOA samples and know for sure what is going on in my engine for my specific conditions.

And I've seen 350's LOSE the rod bearings BECAUSE somebody put 20W50 in it. On a cold start, 20W50 just doesn't get past the cam bearings, down to the main bearings, then out through the crank passages well enough to keep the rod bearings oiled. Earlier blocks it was OK, but late model stuff should NOT run 20W50. A machine shop I used before he retired(he was well known as he built the engines for FOUNTAIN RACING BOATS for many years) would go NUCLEAR if you said 20W50 was a better oil for a 350 than 10W30 or even 10W40. Said he saw way to many "IDIOTS swear by it", and ruin a perfectly good engine on a cold start because the oil didn't have enough pressure by the time it got out to the rods to do much of anything. And high pressure pumps was another one of his pet peeves. He was a BIG advocate of high volume, but not pressure. Saw way to many distributor gears chewed off because of high pressure pumps and thick oil being used than he cared to talk about. I learned quite a bit from him i nthe few times I talked with him.

So you have your opinion on this matter, and others have theres. As to the EPA not caring about how much oil an engine uses, this is not completely true. If it wasn't for an engine using oil, we would still have high zinc content oils. It was because engines were using oil, that they mandated the zinc and phosphates be stripped from it because it was determined that the zinc and phosphates were coating the cats metals down, and causing them to overheat and fail. This is why we now see cat converters lasting 150-200K miles when back in the 80's and 90's you were lucky if one made it past the 80K mile emissions warranty. And the switch to 5W20 oils, and even 0W20 oils is moreso for CAFE ratings than naything else. It is the same reason that GM went to DEX VI trans fluid in 06 when the DEX III patent expired. It is a thinner viscosity fluid made from a synthetic base stock, and provided a 3-8% reduction in drag IIRC over DEX III as well as an extended drain interval allowing for "lifetime fill" trannies(I don't buy the lifetime fill idea, and believe they should all be changed out around 50-75K miles at least).

 

[Will L.]

DANGER- LONG RAMBLING RANT AHEAD

25 years ago if you were at a refinery or an oil rig and told someone about fracking or pulling oil from sand pits you'd do good to not get a fat lip. Now days if you don't understand the workings of both you will be lost in a quarter of all conversations there. The new oil we use is not just more expensive to get, and more expensive to get processed. It simply is not as good. It is not going to get better barring any major advances no one has dreamed up yet. As synthetic processes improve it will help but current trends are focused more on "green" than "lube". Not just engine oil, all hydrocarbon products.

UOA is the safest way to go, but you have to do the math if the investment is worth it, just like a cenrifuge. In my 01 burb w/ a 6.0- nope just beat it to death and give it an oil change every 10,000 or so. On the ol 6.5- heck yeah it will pay for itself.

As for the DEX VI vs DEXIII, yeah better, but not until the new requirements until the patent expired you say? Hmm. Sounds like a money trail.
I have no knowledge of it specifically, but I do know of many name brand engine oils that are just now coming to market years after testing showed it was the better choice- just the $ to be made was still good on the old stuff for a while yet. Unocal has some amazing stuff still not out to market that I did testing on back when my teenager was still in diapers. It's all a money game. Unfortunately not a money in our favor game.

Remember adding PTFE to the oil? Some big name drag boys still run it. It proves to help with reducing friction, but it builds up and plugs passages causing massive wear in short order. They get away with it because those bearings never see mile #5. 1 run and done. Quick sodium bicarbonate wash and its go time again. Do it on your dd and oops! Thanks slick 50!

Whatever the latest and greatest is has to be guessed at until you do a cost analysis. I learned to research what the manufacturing engineers say not to do, because if they know it can't and announce it like DuPont did with Teflon (PTFE), it will save you in the long run. Until many others have put the miles on a new engine under same use as you, you have to play it safe or risk paying big to be the dead guinea pig. When GM, Mercedes, etc. keep changing their story- take the hint. Honda does not lead innovation in new car technology, they come along after everyone else made it work, or they have to in order to keep up with sales. They do well by not being the guinea pig unless it is on a race track.

 

[JayTheCPA]

I had a friend tell me his 2014 Honda has an oil change indicator. And it did not appear to be just on hours/timer/milage.

Hardly a new technology as I had a mid 80's gasser that did multi measurement points.

Agree with WW and Will about using analysis as the primary decision tool. Started to do UOA on all the vehicles some time ago and was surprised that a hybrid needed new synthetic at 5K and destroyed it by 10K miles.

 

[schiker]

No not new feature just curious about it. If it had advanced more than I suspected.

This was a blast of technology..... My wife's BMW X5 doesn't even have a dipstick for checking crankcase oil level (at least not one you can find or listed in the owners manual). It does it with the computer. I guess a proximity sensor or other sensor. You open the diagnostic window on the dash console and click through menu to check engine oil. It goes through a routine and in a minute or 2 tells you if the oil level is ok or low. I like it will warn you if you are low and not just the oil pressure doesn't register like most use to do. It has an oil life monitor system too and I guess some algorithm of accumulated time units vs. conditions. Hers specs synthetic and it checks conditions accumulated vs. service anniversary which ever comes first.

 

[WarWagon]

The average temp where I ran 20w-50 makes the difference generally over 100 at startup. I wouldn't run it in the "cold" and I wouldn't run it in real new stuff. It's is what works for me being my own warranty station and all that sort of thing. Viscosity tends to trade lower end wear for upper end wear. Regardless the real thin oils (0Wand 5W) are simply too thin especially out here and in specific engines that have high oil consumption. Exactly what does the EPA do specifically with the Dodge 3.8 in minivans (and other engines for that matter)? = NOTHING! Seriously ask your dealer what is high oil consumption and get ignored. Unless it pools out or fouls the spark plugs clean out it: oil consumption is ignored. And they get away with it.

So looking at "the OEM" and their constraints with the EPA and CAFE one needs to both do UOA and feel free to experiment with other oils, change intervals, and grades(weights) to solve a problem CAFE and EPA are causing your engine. Some modern engines will throw a code if the wrong grade of oil is in it. If your oil is working for you no need to experiment. The only way you can know is with UOA and an added benefit is it is documentation to get warranty if needed before a complete failure.

 

[btfarm]

I'm kinda old school (and old too for that matter) but since I was born a gearhead and raised a gearhead and coincidentally I was also cursed with a blind man's sense of smell, I need to pull a dipstick to feel and smell my oil frequently to confirm what the oil pressure gauge is telling me and now with the oil life monitor I can also get another data point for input. An occasional UOA tells me I'm spot on. Combine that with keeping up by having discussions like this and you're golden.
BTW, that's one of the reasons the Duramax went from Shell Rotella to Mobil Delvac a couple of hundred thou ago. Discussions and old school knowledge combined with new technology. Keep it up.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I'm kinda old school (and old too for that matter) but since I was born a gearhead and raised a gearhead and coincidentally I was also cursed with a blind man's sense of smell, I need to pull a dipstick to feel and smell my oil frequently to confirm what the oil pressure gauge is telling me and now with the oil life monitor I can also get another data point for input. An occasional UOA tells me I'm spot on. Combine that with keeping up by having discussions like this and you're golden.
BTW, that's one of the reasons the Duramax went from Shell Rotella to Mobil Delvac a couple of hundred thou ago. Discussions and old school knowledge combined with new technology. Keep it up.

I'm going back to ROTELLA once I use up the MOBIL 1 I got. I run the 5W40 synthetic, and the ROTELLA held better hot idle oil pressure, and seemed to start better when cold. And I didn't have the typewriter tick with the ROTELLA T6, but it sure ticks with the MOBIL 1.

 

[WarWagon]

As for the DEX VI vs DEXIII...
In the rush for all synthetic oils and "reduced maintenance"...
I don't trust thin DexVI and would rather run a thicker Synthetic DexIII. I don't trust it for older stuff because of the number of "modern" 4l70E's I burned up that require VI. (Yes it is a beefed up "old school" 4L60E that required Dex III - so another old design forced to use questionable fluids "just because".) Nether does Allison trust it calling for their own transyd oil over Dex VI. Yeah, it can take more heat, but, it's so damn thin that it looses pressure and allows the TCC to massively slip generating more heat than it can take. Results in burned steel blue torque converters and VI oil all over the back of the vehicle. Backwards compatible my ass!

When you push the limits, esp. with a poor design to start with, you discover the older oil is better. Performance trans builders call for the older proven DexIII.

Further the number of posi rear ends on Tralblazer SS's I went through qualified for Lemon Law. Apparently GM in their infinite ignorance completely disregarded Eaton's positrack requirements of "no synthetic oil" and learned the hard way what happens when you build a bunch of vehicles with the wrong oil in the diff. Clutch packs fail quickly and take the diff with them. One gets sick of warranty rebuilds and runs the conventional oil in the diff while GM takes no less than 4 oil spec revisions to figure this out. it was on Eaton's website the entire time, but, GM insisted on low maintenance oils...

So although the OEM Oil life system is fairly accurate there is still value in you researching and analyzing your own situation. Because sometimes the OEM majorly screws it up for whatever reason. As as above there is more than engine oil to worry about!