• Welcome to The Truck Stop! We see you haven't REGISTERED yet.

    Your truck knowledge is missing!
    • Registration is FREE , all we need is your birthday and email. (We don't share ANY data with ANYONE)
    • We have tons of knowledge here for your diesel truck!
    • Post your own topics and reply to existing threads to help others out!
    • NO ADS! The site is fully functional and ad free!
    CLICK HERE TO REGISTER!

    Problems registering? Click here to contact us!

    Already registered, but need a PASSWORD RESET? CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD!

FUEL FILTER/WATER SEPERATOR QUESTIONS

MrMarty51

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,846
Reaction score
38,805
Location
Miles City, Montana
Did a forum search and got severely side tracked. LOL
Right now the filter before the lift pump is a simple 3/8ths in line steel filter. I am wanting to switch it out to a heated fuel water separator.
I read about the Parker Racor filter guide for the Duramax and it seems they are running a four micron filter.
I`m wondering if the heated filter separator is necessary, I thought it probably would be seeing as how the temps here gets well below zero degrees F.
Also would the four micron be too restrictive ?
I think the heater element can be added to many of the Parker Racor filter units, not sure though.
Ideas and suggestions appreciated.
 
Too restrictive? Well that depends on the pump.
You could in theory filter to any size. The more you filter, The more load put on the lift pump.

You could install any pump/filter combo, then measure the fuel pressure and volume getting to the IP.
Too much pressure and/or volume is not good on the IP, just like to low is.

That is why I like the idea of electronic control system like meanGreenH1/ greanmeanie or whatever his screen name is here (y does that confuse me so bad- haha)
The normal method used in any gas or diesel system that is trying to maximize fuel flow, pressure, and filtering normally you oversize the pump to get maximum results, then before going into the IP (carb, etc.) you normally have a regulator to drop volume and pressure. However controlling the pump voltage can do the same on the fly, and be very accurately controlled by the driver. I would think a further step in evolution would Possible but best to leave that out for now as worse side track is probable.
 
You want as little restriction before the pump as possible. 4 micron before the pump is too restrictive. A heated water separator works well before the pump. Quick and dirty is just wrapping the filter with a heater. https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/fuelfilterheater.php

The throttled lift pump is a violation of both frugal and KISS. More trons to F^&k up and trons find a way to do just that. IMO use a brushless lift pump like the Walbro and call it a day. Not bullet proof, but, they have given me the best reliability of all the lift pumps I have killed. I have seriously considered engine belt driven lift pumps due to the biodiesel killing everything... (Even the cam driven 6.2 pumps.)
 
You want as little restriction before the pump as possible. 4 micron before the pump is too restrictive. A heated water separator works well before the pump. Quick and dirty is just wrapping the filter with a heater. https://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/fuelfilterheater.php

The throttled lift pump is a violation of both frugal and KISS. More trons to F^&k up and trons find a way to do just that. IMO use a brushless lift pump like the Walbro and call it a day. Not bullet proof, but, they have given me the best reliability of all the lift pumps I have killed. I have seriously considered engine belt driven lift pumps due to the biodiesel killing everything... (Even the cam driven 6.2 pumps.)
A 30 micron filter would be better or should a person go to a 60 or bigger.
It now has a Facet pump mounted, it seems to be working fine, I`ll know more about that after the filter pressure bolt gets here and the pressure gauge.

I did poke around in the biodiesel site a little. Mighty interesting, I might check with the stores and restaurants and see if they need to get rid of their cooking oil.
 
Make sure you are willing to write off the fuel tank, injection system, and engine if said injection system takes it out before playing with biodiesel. Even the professionals have trouble with it. I have posted the dangers of messing with bio and opened my walled to cover the repairs. Used oil is a commodity anymore so good luck finding it. YMMV.
 
I have used a CAT 256-8753, 10 micron, fuel water separator with good luck before the left pump. You want the small micron final filter after the lift pump.
 
WTF is this "Winter" you talk about? :p
LOL, yup, it is getting that way over here now too, even as far south as it is from Alaska. LOL
I`ll see what I can find for a
the fuel water separator. Probably be the next purchase. I do not want to have to spend the big bucks for an IP because of a water problem that could have easily been handled with the proper filtering.
 
Haha winter!!! Seriously -those heating options are great. How hot is too hot is a question for a pump builder. If I could get the answer that 200* is perfectly fine or even desireable, that would be ideal. At 195*, water naturally seperates from oils/fuels.

The problem wih bio fuels and wvo/wmo is mass production to where end user does nothing except buy it and pump into tank. Trying to make it work at that level is economically not viable yet to the success rate like “normal” fuels were into the 1980s. Keep in mind “normal” fuels had tons of problems that we didn’t experience first hand in the 20’s,30’s,40s, etc. Gasahol and diesel#1&#2 were created trying to find a suitable substitute because of the issues with the fuels that preceeded them.
Many people use homemade or small production runs of bio fuel or alternative fuels with absolutely no problem. But only because each batch is monitored well. I have a friend that makes all his fuel, and only a small 50 micron filter on his truck and car for pump wear issues. But all his fuel is perfectly water free and ran through a centrifuge eliminating contamination to 1/10 of one micron. When they travel long distance where he has to buy from stations, he adds in an extra filter/ seperator combo that is normally not a restriction.

Yes I do have concearns about “throttled” lift pump via electronics, and more parts=more parts to go wrong. And my preference of db2 vs d4 and carburetor over tbi shows my detraction of electronics.
However, most newer diesels require more volume and pressure than 6.5s so the best pumps and filters are now made for them, so using them and regulating it somehow is something to be considered.

Idk if slowing the pump is the best answer, but in industry having a vfd control motor speed is by far best choice. A 50 hp motor/pump running at half capacity does far better than 25 hp full power.

If a simple, low cost, reliable unit can be designed it may be better. By design default all dc motors are variable speed- so just voltage control is needed, but I am far from an electronics guy.

I haven’t paid attention to current excess fuel return systems (hoping to learn -maybe on this thread) so maybe a bigger LP at full power is the answer provided a pressure regulator & volume return system can keep from creating ip issues. Surely the factory system has proven to damage from too low supply And too many failure of occurrences to continue use. Upgrading the lp allows for upgraded filters.

The question is which combo gives better results and at what expense. Maybe $700 make the perfect system with 0 contamination, but $300 gets you to 98%. Then it’s up to each person’s choice of bang for buck.

I wish there was a big fat chart that could compare options.
 
That chart would be a mighty fine ting to see.
I`ll surf around on the innernet and see what there is for a fuel/water filter and separator and post what will be most viable for Me in his thread.
 
Well, didn’t intend to steal thread, just meaning that info is something we all could use. I’m kinda surprised that companies like fass and the like dont have them comparing theirs to the competition.
 
Just to set the record straight, virtually all diesel fuel in Illinois is 5%-20% bio and has been for the last 5 or 6 years or so. I don't see much in the way of problems to the hundreds of thousands of trucks running around here at any time of the year. And also, for the record, I have used the factory Parker Racor fuel filter for the entire life of my Duramax with zero problems except getting gelled once at -30* and that was Pilot's fault.
 
Well, didn’t intend to steal thread, just meaning that info is something we all could use. I’m kinda surprised that companies like fass and the like dont have them comparing theirs to the competition.
And that is good information too, I dont think of it as the thread being hijacked.
 
Main problem with biodiesel is twofold. Extra water retention in the fuel itself. Secondly the Methanol used in the production process can't all be removed. The Methanol is what damages hoses, pump seals, and pump valves. Water is known except for the extra bug growth in the fuel itself.
 
Main problem with biodiesel is twofold. Extra water retention in the fuel itself. Secondly the Methanol used in the production process can't all be removed. The Methanol is what damages hoses, pump seals, and pump valves. Water is known except for the extra bug growth in the fuel itself.
I have been usig the Cenex Roadmaster fuel. I do not know if there is any biodiesel in this stuff. I do not believe that there are any bio plants in this area.
I did find a spec sheet on the fuel, just dont understand a lot of it.
Along with the fuel, I add the appropriate amount of Stanadyne performance additive and have now started adding 2 stroke oil to the mix too.
The spec sheet.
Document Name: Roadmaster_Fieldmaster
Author: SER
Revision: 2.3
Effective Date: 05/05/2016
Cenex Premium #2 ULSD
Includes: Ruby Fieldmaster (B2&B5), Roadmaster (B2&B5)
Physical Property ASTM Specifications
Method Min Max
Gravity API D4052 Report
Flash, oF, PM D93 126
Kin. Viscosity, 104oF, cSt D445 1.7 4.1
Corrosion Test 3 hrs. at 122oF D130 #1
Sulfur, Wt. % D5453 (2) 15 mg/kg
Pour Point, oF D97 -15
Cloud Point, oF D2500/D5733 +6 North
+14 South
Ash, Wt. % D482 0.01
Distillation, oF, 760 mm D86
90% Recovered 540 640
End Point Report
Water & Sediment, Vol. % D2709 0.05
Cetane Number D613/D6890 47.0
Carbon Res. 10% Residuum D524 0.35
Thermal Stability D6468
W unit 75
% reflection or Y unit 82
Haze (procedure 2) D4176 2
Lubricity D6079 460
Additional information:
Premium Additive Package is present
Cloud point and pour point max October 1 through March 1
Cloud and pour point max may be higher due to region product is sold
Meets or exceeds ASTM 975 specification
 

Attachments

  • ulsdroadrubyfieldmaster.ashx.pdf
    13.1 KB · Views: 5
I did poke around in the biodiesel site a little. . . . might check with the stores and restaurants and see if they need to get rid of their cooking oil.

As WW mentioned, waste oil is not as easy to find any more. Chances are good that the local restaurants and stores are getting paid for their used oil by somebody that comes and gets it.
 
As WW mentioned, waste oil is not as easy to find any more. Chances are good that the local restaurants and stores are getting paid for their used oil by somebody that comes and gets it.
And I would imagine as many farmers and ranchers that are constantly in the restaurants that some of them must be setup and processing the oils.
 
As for filtering fuel at a different rate in winter than summer- no. If the temperature is so cold it creates any issue of any kind- heat it.

As to more water and methonal in other fuels- methonal is an easy thing- sae30r9. There is 2 certain aluminum alloys that methonal/ethonal damages. afaik the ip is made of different type of aluminum alloy, so no worries there.

If you look in the fuel report you posted, couple things to notice. One part shows “B2 &B5”. This is not legally required, but normally indicative of the percentage of Biofuel mixed in. As in B2 probably means 2% and B5 probably means 5% biofuel by volume. Have to call to verify- but I’d bet a cheeseburger on it- ha

The next thing is 0.05% water & sediment content. Pretty much ignore the word sediment. Every 5,000 gallons of fuel you burn is 1 gallon of water. That is within legal spec, but not a lot to brag about. Just like 90% recovered. That BARELY meets spec and is really kinda crappy. Most fuel testing now days recovers over 98%. And while that 10% mia doesn’t sound like a lot, when they are cooking off the fuel to measure it, water cooks faster than than fuels, so... yeah. Could be you get 1 gallon of water per every 1,000 gallons of fuel you buy- you just don’t know, and honestly neither does the people making it.

So a question here is: how exactly do they know about five hundredths of one percent by volume of water and sediment? It has to be seperated to be measured. Centrifuge. There is no substitute.

Big multimillion dollar diesel boats use filters then a centrifuge to remove all the remaining water. A person could add a centrifuge to their truck, or buy fuel and transport it home to settle out it out by time or centrifuge, then use it and have pretty much perfect fuel.

If a person has interst in wvo or wmo (more free used engine oil out there than french fry oil), absolutely a centrifuge and heated barrel/ tank is the only thing that makes sense. They could also use that same centrifuge to weekly (depending on miles driven) clean their engine oil and extend its life and the life of fuel system and entire engine. Just all investment of cash up front and time spent to do it. But db2 is needed not a ds4 when dealing with “free” fuel.
 
Back
Top