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Gauging interest here ...

Discussion in '6.5 Performance' started by Twisted Steel Performance, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    Jan 15, 2012
    Pauline, SC
    Hi everyone,

    I would like to ask you all a few questions and I hope everyone would chime in with some feedback.

    To my knowledge this project has never been undertaken for what ever reason..

    I would like to know if a company were to be able to produce CNC ported heads AND the same head you would be able to drop the compression ratio to around 18:1 ( or not, if you wish keep it higher) while still keeping the integrity of the head, said heads would have a multi angle valve job, and also the entire head would have various ceramic coatings to provide thermal protection in the runners & combustion chambers, also dry film lubricants to the valve stems..

    Would a set of custom heads be considered for use to anyone here??

    My reason for this question is this will be a costly adventure, myself and another company have been working on this for quite a while. Currently I hand port every head along with some manual mill work, this is very labor intensive and costly..

    My port work has proven to have very good flow numbers, IF this project proves to be a option in the months to come I could better the numbers while lowering the cost ..

    So my real question is would anyone consider a set?

    What would a buyer expect/like to have in a custom set of heads?

    We all know their are several different heads out there at various costs to be used as a starting set.

    Clearwater heads.

    Off shore heads.

    GEP heads from AMG.

    P400 heads from AMG @ 1000.00 each..

    I would only use NEW stock not do the work on used parts, their are a few reasons for this, no way to warranty it is the main one..

    My personal preference is the P400 head, I have shown here and other forums that it is a mold all it's own and it is the only head that will accommodate the bigger exhaust valves & seats, but if a person wanted to cut costs a lesser grade of head could be used..

    I know most are thinking "how much will it cost".. well I don't have a answer just yet, but I would hope it's less than I charge for a hand ported set but I just don't have that answer yet.. I do know this is proving to be costly for me and I don't have a yes from the company I'm talking with yet and at this point I don't know if it will happen or not...

    So, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this subject...

    Thanks, Chris
     
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  2. ak diesel driver

    ak diesel driver 6.5 driver

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    just out of curiousity what does a hand ported set cost? It would definetely be way cool
     
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  3. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    Jan 15, 2012
    Pauline, SC
    1600.00$ w/no coatings
     
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  4. ak diesel driver

    ak diesel driver 6.5 driver

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    does that include the heads? Or just your porting/coating fee?
     
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  5. EWC

    EWC Active Member

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    People are going to want to know flow numbers , valve sizes , etc . Are you willing to post them ? Most of the aftermarket list them in their adds . The price is a little high but you are targeting a small crowd so this might work .

    How are you lowering the CR ?
     
    MrMarty51 likes this.
  6. ak diesel driver

    ak diesel driver 6.5 driver

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    I believe he already stated that in his first post.
     
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  7. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    Pauline, SC
    Fellas, this is all preliminary questions, I'm attempting to gauge if the cost vs return is even in the ballpark.. and I'm guessing it is not as I kinda thought.

    ak , that is my porting price, doesn't include anything else.. and for those that say that's high, figure in 150hrs of labor, 300$ in consumables, for 16 runners... just how much profit do you see and how much per hour am I making ??

    I invite anyone out there if you know of any place that will even attempt the same work and come up with the same or better results please tell me, I will send customers their way..

    EWC, I know people want that info, I always ask that same question myself, the info would be made public.. we all know there is only 2 valve sizes available and going with the bigger valves adds lots more cost to a set so how many would go that route?? And the lowering the ratio, that is still being developed and will be dyno tested before it's offered to the public..
     
  8. ak diesel driver

    ak diesel driver 6.5 driver

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    so a guy would be looking at 4k for fully done p400 heads
     
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  9. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    Jan 15, 2012
    Pauline, SC
    Without big valves installed yes close to it...
     
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  10. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    Jan 15, 2012
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    Here is a partial cost list I gave a customer not too long ago..

    Full head porting - 1600.00
    Valve unshrouding - 350.00
    Ceramic coating both intake & exhaust runners with thermal barrier - 500.00
    Ceramic coat combustion chamber & valve faces - 375.00
    Install large 6.2 exhaust valves & seats in heads - 1420.00
    Ceramic coat valve stem's - 96.00
     
  11. Will L.

    Will L. Well-Known Member

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    Compared to heads that are fully done for like gasser bbc or ford, that is a good price.

    I have been following this on hummer forum- my last post there:

    So p400 heads ported and coated to flow gobs of air, and lowers compression ratio to save money on lower ratio pistons. And the option of shoving the big valves in those heads like were in the 6.2 sets for even better results- or actually this would be the pinnacle, so best results possible for this engine.

    The only other game in town that proved good flow on their head work is gone now, and were in second place anyways from your flow tests before.

    Hmmm...

    I know many 6.2/6.5 owners are in duct tape and bailing wire mode, and I will never put anyone down for that situation, but anyone else that is owning a 6.5 not on a shoestring budget should have interest. I do.

    Currently I am fighting off from the shoestring budget, and hoping this could pan out for me. But any one that spent any time on website, magazine, tv show, etc. knows the headwork importance. Second only to turbo.

    Everyone out there can argue turbo A vs B vs C for these engines. But head flow is kinda obvious for any engine. And I have done a few heads in the past, but a guy has to ruin a few heads to know where to draw the line (as you posted some painful pics before) and I cannot justify possibly ruining my heads to take the chance. Back in the day several SBC heads fell victim to me, but they were cheap and plentiful.

    I am hoping other engine headwork you may do could be used in keeping this option alive if you don’t hear enough responses right away.

    Honest assessment: Interested in wanting it: 100%
    Being able to afford it: 20%.

    If it wasn’t for me needing to do my interior, paint, new radiator, new turbo, and set of tires all right now, I would be in 100%.

    Any of you big dollar hummer owners that don’t understand what this does really ought to learn about it.

    For those that dont know and to slow the pm messages and phone calls, I have no ties to him. Just learned from him on the forums, he is the top dog in the 6.5 world for head work and his flow numbers prove it. The 2nd place shop was peninsular diesel that is now sold or closed out of business, so he is your best shot at top quality 6.5 custom headwork. The ONLY reason I dont have a set of his p400 heads on my hummer already is I have been out of work for 1.5 years and only have a part time job of 2 days a week for the last 14 months after that time of no work -person family issues needing my time is currently killing my hummer. So yes, if you can afford it it is WELL worth it, and for the love of 6.5s, throw away the gm crap turbo while the heads are off for a big boy turbo. I like the ATT turbo, Chris prefers the hx35/40 hybrid- so no I am not a 100% fanboy of any one person. Maybe one day Chris could prove me wrong here, we’ll see. [​IMG]
     
  12. WarWagon

    WarWagon Well it hits on 7 of 8...

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    @Will L. said it best. Adding to it: you appear to be selling enough to look at doing this. It's taken me years to "recover" enough to buy a Moose IP for Patch. I damn well know the 6.5NA precups and heads will hold me back and this (along with known mains cracks) is why I ordered the smaller Moose. I like to improve things when I have them apart if budget allows. The easy targets on this setup are exhaust and turbo. Don't let "Frugal" and duct tape discourage you because there are people out there that don't want a new $70,000 emissions strangled pickup. The five figure amount of $$$ I have sunk into Patch and the damn Dodge are proof of that. There are a few members on here that push the performance limits of 6.5's in SUV's and Pickups. Hell even a van owner drops in now and then. I can't leave the P400 motorhome owner out. Hummer owners are in a class of their own and not well represented here.

    This said I feel there is a market for custom headers to replace the airflow clusterf#ck GM gave us on the passenger side. This may be easier to sell than head work. After you have done turbo, IP, custom exhaust - then you go looking for other power left on the table. I agree with heads being the next step. Maybe a complete Hummer power package "kit" down to the lockwashers to bolt it on. Stage 1,2,3 appear to be working marketing with Stage "Uber" including the new heads. The aftermarket has other diesels cornered so there is room for "real" 6.5 performance stuff.
     
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  13. Jaryd

    Jaryd Oh the sound a 6.5 makes

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    I say go for it. Try and get the business up and going the way you want it. Customers will come once word gets out about how good of a job you do on porting and coatings. I truly believe that the coating world is going to take off once more people hear, see, and especially understand how it works and how it helps out tremendously EVERYTHING that it is applied to if it’s prepared right.

    I do agree that you are going to be looking at a small crowd right now but I believe that crowd will grow before long.

    I’m in the same boat as Will. Me wanting it is 100% but me affording right now is about 0%. With our new house and having to put a new furnace and condenser and new duct work in my parents house is digging in to the bank account.
     
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  14. Will L.

    Will L. Well-Known Member

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    Honestly that is why I posted most my input on the hummer forum and copied my synopsis here. Investing $10,000 in a hummer makes economic sense, but a truck that can’t resale for $20,000 may not be.

    Obviously a turbo improvement will bring better results dollar for dollar, but once the inside of the engine is done, a turbo can be upgraded much easier than heads. And heads having better flow will really bring out the most of any turbo. So if a person had to do it partially but knew they were going to build an engine for optimum results be it power, efficiency, long life, or whatever - I would say do the heads while engine is out and do the turbo later if it needs to be driven and other parts of the build comes later.
     
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  15. Twisted Steel Performance

    Twisted Steel Performance Formerly: sctrailrider Vendor

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    All are good ideas from Y'all, and yes their are several places that better products could be designed. A few of the ideas are on the list to be tackled, but I am only 1 person with somewhat limited time. Once I get caught up with my motor I will move to the next area.

    This particular project I consider a dream, you wouldn't believe the numbers the machining company threw out.. I am going to go as far as getting real cost numbers from them then decide where to go, at this point it's not looking like a reality but I'm not writing it off just yet... Would be nice tho, would free up R&D time for another project..

    If I could find a really cheap non running wrecked junk hummer for a mock up I would move that direction some, until then the GMT400 is my platform..
     
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  16. ak diesel driver

    ak diesel driver 6.5 driver

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    I don't think the words cheap and Hummer belong in the same sentence. LOL
     
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  17. Will L.

    Will L. Well-Known Member

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    Hummer, no hmmwv not to bad. Only interior issue then.
    Hmmwv with 6.2 th400 around $7k no problem. Then after tax write off as business expense for mock up, and it has another 10k in parts into it they sell for 25-30k. Check out pricing from “Plan B” pricing as example.
     
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