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Feed The Beast, Part I & Part II Improve fuel to IP

Discussion in '6.2 and 6.5 Technical Reference Library' started by Acesneights1, May 8, 2008.

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  1. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

    10,018
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    May 5, 2008
    Northeast CT
    TD edit, gonna be a little out of order per Aces request I merged them, his version Pt II, though posted before mine Pt I done at old site, & reposted here later; so pt II will appear before pt I

    OK So it's time to rebuild the knowledge base. I'll try to do my part here since I just did this Mod it's still fresh in my mind. This mod was originally designed/created by Turbine Doc. I used a couple different fittings so Here goes. I never did a whole write up before so Mods feel free to edit as nessicary.
    OK So in our quest for more performance with Improved Eproms, Mechical waste gate controllers etc we also need better fuel delivery to the Injection Pump. Has anyone ever really looked at the Fuel line feeding the IP from the Fuel Manager(aka Fuel Filter) ? It's tiny. Looks like Vacuum line. Don't remember the actual measured size from the orignal write up but suffice to say it's small and when we increase the power of the engine and the IP tries to draw fuel faster than the Lift pump can deliver through this bottle neck we can actually end up with a vacuum. Never set up a gauge myself but others have reported that.
    So now with a little history behind the idea we move on to the task. The nice thing about this mod is it's very low cost. There has also been specualtion that the lack of free flowing fuel through the bottle neck may have also contributed to the failure of GM's big Idea of cooling the PMD with fuel flow.
    We'll start with the fuel manager first. IP fitting mod later.
    So we start by disconnecting the fuel manager. There are two 15 MM Bolts that hold it to the rear of the intake manifold. It has three lines on it and the wires for both the fuel heater and water in fuel sensor. There is an influent line which is about 3/8 inch. Nice and healthy flow coming in. Then on the other effluent side(can you tell I work for the Water Dept ?)or out to IP we have this little guy that looks like windshield washer hose(well maybe slightly bigger). Then we have the hose that goes to the drain in the front of the motor.
    OK so now we have disonnected all the lines and removed the fuel manager(it's proper name). Now dissasemble it. Take the top ring off that holds in the filter(If you can't figure that one out maybe you should stop at this point:crazy:). Then take the bottom ring off which holds in the fuel heater rod. Now remove the water in fuel sensor off the side(2 screws forgot the size but need a nutdriver). Also don;t forget to remove the last ditch screen. If it's missing you need to get another one. I don't have a pic but maybe someone else does. You cannot get it from the dealer. ONly a stanydyne dealer. Part# to come. These often get stuck in the fuel filter and discarded so your might be missing. Mine were in both my rides.
    Now we have our stripped down housing ready for mod.
    We take our effluent or out side of the filter and cut the fitting off nice square and flush with teh housing. This fitting is pressed in but we are going to drill it out after cutting it flush.
    OK now that we have cut our out fitting flush there is no turning back so here comes the tricky part. drilling out the old fitting large enough for 1/8 NPT. Now BEFORE Drilling look into the fuel manager from the top. See the nice shiny sleeve that the filter slides down on ? You have very little clearence between that and where you will be drilling into so BE CAREFUL. If you drill to far and into that middle part, you got a 300$ paperweight. If you are not comfortable with precise drilling, bring it to a machine shop but me myself am not all that great and I did it so it can be done by the average guy.
    I drilled with a nice brand new sharp 5/16 bit all the way through the housing but not hitting the middle part. I measured the depth I would need to go to penetrate the housing without hitting the inside part and then put a zip tie on the drill bit at a slight less as a makeshift depth gauge. Once I drilled in out successfully I used a really skinny pick to get in there to deburr the insde between the housing and sleeve. Now use a 1/8 npt pipe tap. Don't go too deep because the tap is tapered you you want the new fitting you are going to install to thread just about all the way in but not quite so it kind wedged itself in for a nice seal. I did trial and error. I tapped a little then tried the fitting. Took about 3 tries to get it where I wanted. Now IIRC this is where I veered off what Turbine Doc did. TD correct this as nessicary as I don't have the old sticky to reference. You can use a 3/8 barbx1/8npt and then hose clamp and fuelline from here but i wanted to go the extra mile to make it look neat. There is nothing wrong with teh 3/8 barb and hose clamp. I used a #6 37deg malex1/8 NPT hydrualic fitting. Now inside this fitting the opeing gets smaller. I drilled it out the same size all the way through which I believe was like.280 All I know is it ended up being the same size ID as if I had used the 3/8 barb( I had one but didn't use it) Now I took a viton 3/8 fuel inj line and put a 3/8barbx#6 female. The reason I did this extra work was so the fuel line would be easy to remove instead of wrestling with getting it off the barb if I ever needed to remove the fuel manager later on for any reason. Ever try to get fuel Inj line off a barb ? Not easy and at like 6$ a foot I didn't want to have to cut it off. Here's the pics. It's late. I'll do the IP end of this tommorow night.
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2008
  2. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

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    May 5, 2008
    Northeast CT
    There seems to be a max of 5 pics to upload per thread(Gotta improve that) so here are the rest. These are of the fuel line I made. Upon reassembly I went to my local hydrualics shop where i got the fittings and also matched up the o rings(water sensor and large one for fuel heater) to viton ones. This give you an edge if you want to run bio later on. I did this with my intake off because I was doing other stuff first but it can be done with intake on. Part 2 Tommorow night I'll post how I did the IP fitting and the flush/pressure test before final connection.
     

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  3. 94K30

    94K30 Diesel nut

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    May 9, 2008
    manchester CT
    good job, aces, good to see you here, too
     
  4. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

    10,018
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    May 5, 2008
    Northeast CT
    Thanks. If you ever want to do this mod you can look at mine first hand. I got all the parts at The Parker Store up on Chapel Road.
     
  5. Turbine Doc

    Turbine Doc Just Another Diesel Guy

    Feeding your beast

    Here is my version Pt I of FTB:

    Once you start to push performance envelope you notice that GM never intended the 6.5 to get but only so much fuel, to whit, follow your fuel line from tank to the IP, hmnn that is odd, line is bigger at it's start than at it's final termination point. So I got to doing some R&D, what I found was that the inlet line of the filter manager was bigger than it's outlet. Viola an idea struck me since I knew the IP can pull its own fuel over a dead lift pump, and still have ability to let truck move along at decent pace how much pressure it is getting isn't as important as the voulme (V) delivered to the pump.

    The small outlet of the filter manager did up pressure, as it is acting like an orifice as head is built against it pressure(P) goes up, but remember basic physics class in high school when P is up V goes down, so all theses guys in quest for more pressure with high pressure lift pumps really weren't accomplishing much because that filter manager outlet orifice was only let x gph get to the IP regardless how much pressure was working against the orifice, and only way to get more gph to the IP was to reduce the orifice restriction.

    Ergo "Feed the Beast" mod was concieved.

    Well now I was gonna add some pics but seems I also have been bitten by file size limits message, stand by until we get that resolved
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2008
    jrsavoie likes this.
  6. TurboTahoe

    TurboTahoe Recruit

    790
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    May 6, 2008
    Tim, Thanks for sticking with us 6.5ers. I know how much work you and the rest of the gang did at the other place, and I have learned so much from you and GMCTD and Kevin, etc. Thanks for doing this 'again'.

    Rob :)
     
  7. Sunshine

    Sunshine Northern Lights

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    May 29, 2008
    Oslo-Norway

    ME "2"

    /Paul
     
  8. Ratman

    Ratman 6.5 Diesel NUTCASE

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    May 6, 2008
    Pac NW USA
    Amen to that!!

    The sad part is, -all that information and hard work over "there", -and to read some of the threads that people start over there these days without reading A SINGLE THING in the FAQ's or stickies. It's ten times worse over there now than it was when I frequented over there.

    That was one of the FIRST things I did was read through as much of that stuff as I could, -it was like GOLD!!

    Damn kids!
     
  9. nvmtnlion

    nvmtnlion Got 1911?

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    May 3, 2008
    It's a better place here.. don't look back and don't dwell on it too long.
     
  10. iamdave0887

    iamdave0887 Here Comes Chaos.....

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    May 5, 2008
    CT
    very true. that "place" is falling apart. i'm wondering when the online riots will start over there. :eek6: we already had one when they sold and its a matter of time before another one starts. i stay there for the Faqs and to add my $0.02 here and there now and again but i've not been posting there as much lately myself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  11. Pepperidge

    Pepperidge Member Advocate Staff Member Lead Moderator

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    Slidell, La
    the issue is being worked on...
     
  12. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

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    May 5, 2008
    Northeast CT
    Ahhhh. That's why I could not upload my FTB pics. I really wanna finish that thread but I thought the pics were to big . Now I understand.:nopics:
     
  13. JeffMD

    JeffMD Bent tool

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    Aug 8, 2008
    Texas
    TD and Aces,
    I have sort of followed the progress of feeding the beast but must admit I did get a little lost in the original development thread. I am contemplating doing it on my suburban, but I do not do much towing. I am looking at it from sort of a hot rod point of view. Have either of you guys had a chance to dyno your rigs after the mod? I am looking to sensibly push the performance limits to about 1/8 of an inch short of blowing my engine apart!:biggrinjester: Just curious how much of a performance improvement you have seen.
     
  14. Turbine Doc

    Turbine Doc Just Another Diesel Guy

    What FTB does when combined with a healthy h/o lift pump is to insure that when you push the envelope, you aren't being limited by lack of fuel, it isn't a performance gainer but more of a sustainer. idea came to me when towing my tractor I was only 18,700# combined that day vs 23,900# when moving my backhoe, I was climbing grade 2700 rpm, 55mph, no smoke, and EGT only 900F, no increase in speed just flat, now since FTB if I get a good rolling start at bottom of same hill, (hi rise bridge long grade to begin climb onto the bridge, I-65 mile marker 20 coming out of/into Mobile Al, I can pull the back-hoe 23,900 75mph if I wish and still have some reserve power 300rpm 1100 EGT).

    So no dyno numbers since that mod went in other than real world performance observation, other than buying a h/o lift pump and some fittings this mod is not that expensive to incorporate.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2008
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  15. Turbine Doc

    Turbine Doc Just Another Diesel Guy

    Oh thanks for kind words guys, Drew Thanks for fixing the picture posting.
     

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  16. Turbine Doc

    Turbine Doc Just Another Diesel Guy

    What was GM thinking; goes beyond logic to come into the filter manager big then go small, well it was fine I guess to support 195 flywheel Hp, but at minimum to support 200+ Rwhp some are getting out of their 6.5s.

    Looks like I'll have to retake some pics folks, somehow I shrunk em too small when resizing to fit old sites format, but you sort of get the idea, old outlet fitting from manager was 3/16" od, now with FTB is now .280" id just tad under 5/16" ID from tank thru manager to IP inlet.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 16, 2008
  17. Turbine Doc

    Turbine Doc Just Another Diesel Guy

  18. Rodd

    Rodd Recruit

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    May 5, 2008
    Antelope, CA
    Tim,

    I was looking for the FTB thread at the other place and couldn't find it. This is the only thread at this site that I found on this site. Any way you can put it in the sticky's?

    Thanks!
     
  19. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

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    May 5, 2008
    Northeast CT
    I noticed no difference but it was easy to do with the intake off and made sense to do it. Like Tim said it's really more just a supply thing. If you are running a stock 6.5 probably won't notice anything but when you start chippin it and adding boost , then the IP can starve. The fuel is still limited slightly by the inlet on the IP under the screen. That had been debated on the old site. I personally didn't have the balls to mess with that . It has 4 little holes in it that can be ever so slightly enlarged but I didn't do that. The only real difference between what Tim did and what i wrote up(based entirely on Tim's idea) was to make the new fule line removable without wrestling it off a barb in a tight place. Just a few xtra fitting and I used a 150 degree sweep at the IP instaed of looping the fuel line . Just thought it was better since the factory supply line seemed to have a natural bend in it.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2008
  20. Acesneights1

    Acesneights1 New Member

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    Northeast CT
    OK so not retyping my original post and not changing what Tim did here is my version of the supply line from FM to IP. I used a #6 male JIC x #4 male sae oring. I used a #6 male JIC x 1/8NPT at the fuel manager and then a #6 female JIC x 3/8 barb for the fuel line at FM end. At IP end I used a Mr. Gasket(brand name) #6 female JIC 150 deg bend. I drilled the fitting I put into the fuel manager and the IP larger ID.
     

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