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Thread: 88894035?

  1. #1

    Default 88894035?

    In the current MaxxTORQUE issue, Heath mentions that his testing shows that the 97+ "high volume" water pump was not that great, and that the "factory service replacement water pump" (#88894035) was the preferred replacement, giving 48 GPM performance, whereas the 97+ only gave 22 GPM! Wow.

    I have a 97+ water pump, AC Delco Model 251-590. It appears that the recommended pump is also called an AC Delco 251-603.

    After all these years of reading, I never knew there was a difference. Any comments from the troops?

    -Rob
    1995 2-door 1/2 ton Tahoe. Positraction 3.73, 4L80-E, 4WD, HyperTech chip, Flowmaster crossover/downpipe, hogged out intake, '97 air cleaner assembly with factory filter, 3" lift, #280 flex-a-lite fans, Centerline wheels, PowerSlot rotors, 198K miles. Hellwig swaybars. Rancho adjustable shocks, Heath PMD Isolator, Health HD Lift Pump, OPS Relay Mod, new 170 Amp Alternator (sure helps with the electric fans), Hadley train horns! 0-60 in 9.5 seconds.

  2. #2
    My first diesel! toddlnrd's Avatar
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    Default

    I believe Heath was saying that the 48 gpm and 22 gpm was the flow to the passenger side of the engine, not the total flow of the water pump.

    As to the model numbers, I don't have a clue.

    Todd
    1999 GMC Suburban 1500 4wd (325,000 miles) :"F" engine, Heath TurboMaster, Heath PMD relocator, new lift pump, removed vac pump, two Interstate batteries, transmission rebuilt @ 200,000 miles, 3" WarpSpeed DP and 2.5" X-over, 4" WarpSpeed Exhaust w/muffler, General Grabber AT2 (265/75/16), and stock computer.

  3. #3
    Rust.....What rust.... DieselSlug's Avatar
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    The stock older pump flows 85 gpm, and the newer 97 plus stock jobs put out 130gpm. I am in the ssame boat as you but i bought a dmax fan with the four bolt setup and want to stick with it, you can go to a parts store and request the one for a 97 year truck and it iwll be a 130 gpm pump, the one he talks about i think is a newer model yet with the screw on fan..... A/C DELCO 251-603
    Mike (Yup another one)....
    1994 Silverado K2500 6.5L TD, R/C L/B VIN. F
    Not your run of the mill 6.5...
    261,000 Miles Body, Engine Rebuild @ 202,000 Miles. GU6 Full-Floating Rear (3.42 Gears) Rebuilt 4L80E @ 241,000 Miles. Complete Hydraulic Fisher Minute Mount Plow 7 1/2 Foot. Remote Mount PMD (Behind Bumper), 195 Degree AC-Delco stat, #7 Resistor, Kennedy HD Fan Clutch, Dmax Fan, Cummins Carter Lift pump, Rebuilt I/P 8 Years Ago, Snorkle Mod, K47 Box, Marine Injectors, Bosch Duraterms, 4'' Warpspeed Exhaust, 2.5'' Cross-Over, ARP Headstuds, H/V Oil Pump, H/O Water Pump, 4-Stage Budde Chip, Holset WH1C Turbo, P/T Wiring Turbo Master, Removed Vac. Pump. Heath Optix Boost Gauge, Optix Pyro Gauge & A Lot-O-Rust.
    2011 F150 FX4
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  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toddlnrd View Post
    I believe Heath was saying that the 48 gpm and 22 gpm was the flow to the passenger side of the engine, not the total flow of the water pump.

    As to the model numbers, I don't have a clue.

    Todd
    Yes, I understood that. It is simply that in the discussions all these years, we've only talked about 2 pumps - one pre-97, and one 97+. I didn't realize that there was a third option, that 'factory service replacement' option, which apparently is even higher flow. I was wondering if anyone had first-hand experience with it.

    -Rob
    1995 2-door 1/2 ton Tahoe. Positraction 3.73, 4L80-E, 4WD, HyperTech chip, Flowmaster crossover/downpipe, hogged out intake, '97 air cleaner assembly with factory filter, 3" lift, #280 flex-a-lite fans, Centerline wheels, PowerSlot rotors, 198K miles. Hellwig swaybars. Rancho adjustable shocks, Heath PMD Isolator, Health HD Lift Pump, OPS Relay Mod, new 170 Amp Alternator (sure helps with the electric fans), Hadley train horns! 0-60 in 9.5 seconds.

  5. #5
    Rust.....What rust.... DieselSlug's Avatar
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    If i didnt spend the money on the fan i would have bought it by now......
    Mike (Yup another one)....
    1994 Silverado K2500 6.5L TD, R/C L/B VIN. F
    Not your run of the mill 6.5...
    261,000 Miles Body, Engine Rebuild @ 202,000 Miles. GU6 Full-Floating Rear (3.42 Gears) Rebuilt 4L80E @ 241,000 Miles. Complete Hydraulic Fisher Minute Mount Plow 7 1/2 Foot. Remote Mount PMD (Behind Bumper), 195 Degree AC-Delco stat, #7 Resistor, Kennedy HD Fan Clutch, Dmax Fan, Cummins Carter Lift pump, Rebuilt I/P 8 Years Ago, Snorkle Mod, K47 Box, Marine Injectors, Bosch Duraterms, 4'' Warpspeed Exhaust, 2.5'' Cross-Over, ARP Headstuds, H/V Oil Pump, H/O Water Pump, 4-Stage Budde Chip, Holset WH1C Turbo, P/T Wiring Turbo Master, Removed Vac. Pump. Heath Optix Boost Gauge, Optix Pyro Gauge & A Lot-O-Rust.
    2011 F150 FX4
    2.5'' Lift, Cooper Discoverer S/T Maxx Tires
    TOY: 1989 5.8 LX Fox Mustang

  6. #6

    Default

    Local stealer says that the 251-603 = $405.70! Wow.

    -Rob
    1995 2-door 1/2 ton Tahoe. Positraction 3.73, 4L80-E, 4WD, HyperTech chip, Flowmaster crossover/downpipe, hogged out intake, '97 air cleaner assembly with factory filter, 3" lift, #280 flex-a-lite fans, Centerline wheels, PowerSlot rotors, 198K miles. Hellwig swaybars. Rancho adjustable shocks, Heath PMD Isolator, Health HD Lift Pump, OPS Relay Mod, new 170 Amp Alternator (sure helps with the electric fans), Hadley train horns! 0-60 in 9.5 seconds.

  7. #7
    Depends on the 6.5 Matt Bachand's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTahoe View Post
    Local stealer says that the 251-603 = $405.70! Wow.

    -Rob
    Bailing GM outta bankruptcy, one water pump at a time!

    I think they should make new light duty tahoe's and pickups with the military 6.5 and updated DB-4's. That should bail em out Since they ditched the 4.5l diesel, why not use the military proven 6.5's and keep em in circulation
    1997 Chevy 3500 4x4 Dual Wheel 6.5 TD 156k (D.S. Head rebuilt at 120k) A great truck that gets BETTER with age
    9' Utility Body w/ Dual Tanks, 9' Fisher Plow / Glowshift Fuel Gauge On Dash
    50 Gallon Bed Mounted Transfer Tank / KYB Monomax Frt / AC_Delco Gas Rear Shocks
    V-Pump Delete / 99." Serp / 2 Walbro FRB-5 / Racor 490r30 Prefilter/Water Separator (10 Micron)
    Strobes all the way around / IssPro Boost/Pyro Guages on A-Pillar / 0-15psi Fuel Pressure on Pod next to A-Pillar
    Heath Turbo Master / 4" Diamond Eye Exhaust / New Bosch Injectors @ 130k
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    235/85 16's....
    4l80e Rebuilt at 106k (blew reverse out, my fault)
    -1.94 TDCO / Half Assed FTB (Still need to bore out IP fitting) / Switchable TWIN walbro's. (10PSI @ IP)

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bachand View Post
    Bailing GM outta bankruptcy, one water pump at a time!

    I think they should make new light duty tahoe's and pickups with the military 6.5 and updated DB-4's. That should bail em out Since they ditched the 4.5l diesel, why not use the military proven 6.5's and keep em in circulation
    Ha ha Matt, well-put!

    Well, we gave 'em $50B (I wonder if it was illegal, actually), and MORE TO COME, with no proof that anything was being run differently. (Where's MY bailout?)

    I love my two 6.5s, and plan to keep them, God willing, for a long time, but that seems pretty excessive for a water pump.

    -Rob
    1995 2-door 1/2 ton Tahoe. Positraction 3.73, 4L80-E, 4WD, HyperTech chip, Flowmaster crossover/downpipe, hogged out intake, '97 air cleaner assembly with factory filter, 3" lift, #280 flex-a-lite fans, Centerline wheels, PowerSlot rotors, 198K miles. Hellwig swaybars. Rancho adjustable shocks, Heath PMD Isolator, Health HD Lift Pump, OPS Relay Mod, new 170 Amp Alternator (sure helps with the electric fans), Hadley train horns! 0-60 in 9.5 seconds.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I was thinking of posting something on another thread then didn't. Not sure I wanted to post here but as long as for discussion.

    I'd like to see the test procedure and equipment they used to gather that data. I don't claim to be an expert just playing devils advocate here.

    These water pumps are not positive displacement and true flow rate is unknown and variable depending on RPM and most importantly how open the thermostat is.

    I believe I have a decent understanding of the radiator cap and increase in pressure is good for increasing boiling point. I had never heard the waterpump increases the pressure in the block. Its a closed loop system and yes there is a pressure differential top to bottom hose for flow but not sure how much pressure differential is from head to top hose radiator inlet (which is high pressure and lower hose would be low pressure thus causing flow.


    What controls localized boiling is....
    System pressure, turbulation, flow, temp control, casting thickness of metals, and coolant surface tension.

    Flow is going to take the path of least resistance and I am not sure how the water pump can really change that. I think its due to different turbulation but not sure how its different or why. I would have like more discussion in the article along those lines and explain the mechanics of it. Not sure about any differences in the pums inlet or outlets that equalize the flow????

    Yes, I believe one pump can out perform another if you measured temps and compared several probes in different areas but is it really a flowrate difference or turbulation and/or flow combined. ? In any event one seems to perform better for Heath but I would like to know the exact and real reasons why.
    97 Chev K2500 6.5, 5spd, ext cab, shortbed, ~225K miles, remote FSD(DTech), remote oil filters, boost, EGT, fuel pressure gages, Heath TM, 3" DP 4" Exhaust, Prodigy, B&W Turnover ball, 2" Rear wheel spacers, Sirius, Super Steer Idler, Roadmaster Active Suspension, rear Timbrens.

  10. #10

    Default

    Some excellent points, Schiker.

    I also realize that thermodynamically, you can have TOO MUCH flow, where the coolant doesn't pick up enough heat as it passes by the heated surface. It's a matter of balancing the flow. The description in the article is pretty basic, but my main point is that I didn't realize there was yet another option for HO water pump, and wanted to know if anyone has installed one and/or physically compared the 97+ versus the 88894035 variant.

    -Rob
    1995 2-door 1/2 ton Tahoe. Positraction 3.73, 4L80-E, 4WD, HyperTech chip, Flowmaster crossover/downpipe, hogged out intake, '97 air cleaner assembly with factory filter, 3" lift, #280 flex-a-lite fans, Centerline wheels, PowerSlot rotors, 198K miles. Hellwig swaybars. Rancho adjustable shocks, Heath PMD Isolator, Health HD Lift Pump, OPS Relay Mod, new 170 Amp Alternator (sure helps with the electric fans), Hadley train horns! 0-60 in 9.5 seconds.

  11. #11
    Rust.....What rust.... DieselSlug's Avatar
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    Yeah, gm should give us all new trucks or parts to offset our tax dollars given. Customer loyalty. Try calling your local a/c delco warehouse, this will eliminate the dealer, or the middleman, go right to the warehouse. There are a few warehouses around here. However if you dont have an account with them they cant give you prices over the phone, you have to physically walk in. Dumb rule....
    Mike (Yup another one)....
    1994 Silverado K2500 6.5L TD, R/C L/B VIN. F
    Not your run of the mill 6.5...
    261,000 Miles Body, Engine Rebuild @ 202,000 Miles. GU6 Full-Floating Rear (3.42 Gears) Rebuilt 4L80E @ 241,000 Miles. Complete Hydraulic Fisher Minute Mount Plow 7 1/2 Foot. Remote Mount PMD (Behind Bumper), 195 Degree AC-Delco stat, #7 Resistor, Kennedy HD Fan Clutch, Dmax Fan, Cummins Carter Lift pump, Rebuilt I/P 8 Years Ago, Snorkle Mod, K47 Box, Marine Injectors, Bosch Duraterms, 4'' Warpspeed Exhaust, 2.5'' Cross-Over, ARP Headstuds, H/V Oil Pump, H/O Water Pump, 4-Stage Budde Chip, Holset WH1C Turbo, P/T Wiring Turbo Master, Removed Vac. Pump. Heath Optix Boost Gauge, Optix Pyro Gauge & A Lot-O-Rust.
    2011 F150 FX4
    2.5'' Lift, Cooper Discoverer S/T Maxx Tires
    TOY: 1989 5.8 LX Fox Mustang

  12. #12
    Registered User NVW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTahoe View Post
    Some excellent points, Schiker.

    I also realize that thermodynamically, you can have TOO MUCH flow, where the coolant doesn't pick up enough heat as it passes by the heated surface. It's a matter of balancing the flow. The description in the article is pretty basic, but my main point is that I didn't realize there was yet another option for HO water pump, and wanted to know if anyone has installed one and/or physically compared the 97+ versus the 88894035 variant.

    -Rob
    IIRC Turbine Doc has the updated cooling with the Screw on fan from Heath

    Leo
    Leo
    * 95 GMC 3500 4x4 dually, VIN "F", 4.10 gears, 4L80/E trans, 405,000km, 3" downpipe, 4" exhaust, FSD mounted on heat sink in bumper, #9 resistor, 3 pillar gauge's, High Idle kit, Bosch marine injectors, Bosch Duraterm glow plugs, Leroy's ATT chip, ATT, GP overide, K47 airbox, FTB, Racor fuel filter, fuel pressure gauge
    * 98 Chev. 1500 4x4 VIN "S", 3.73 gears 250,000 km, (needs work)
    * 97 GMC C3500 VIN "F", 4.10 gears, 5 spd manual, 324,000 k (parts)
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  13. #13
    Diesel nut 94K30's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboTahoe View Post
    Local stealer says that the 251-603 = $405.70! Wow.

    -Rob
    Hi Rob, That part number, ACDELCO 251-603 is priced $218.04 from
    AC-Direct (seems to be part of amazon.com)
    Marc
    1994 Silverado K3500, "F" code 6.5 TD,American Racing Diamondbacks,265/75/16E General Grabber AT2's, 8'minute mount,Modified SSD Intake with S&B filter, Turbomaster,160 Amp alternator,Bosch injectors, 60G Glow Plugs,Manual Glow Plug Override,Lift pump Relay mod, Delphi '93 lift pump, D-tech FSD mounted in bumper, Stanadyne fuel additive with 2 cycle oil, 174,500 miles so far

  14. #14
    Registered User mitchedo's Avatar
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    I bought a screw-on take-off from Peninsular (because I already had the screw-on fan), but the part number is different from the one in the MaxxTorq article. I'm bumfuzzled.

    I bought Bill's new clutch and composite fan, which has helped my cooling situation some. I've ordered a new radiator and AC condenser to eliminate those as a problem area. I'm going to power wash the tranny cooler; the oil cooler is new, as is the rest of my cooling system. We'll see what happens.
    1999 GMC K3500 Crew longbed, 136,000 miles
    6.5(F), replaced under warranty in 2003 at 87,000 mi with new GM (AMG) long block
    See pix of how the engine insides look at 49,000 miles here:members.csolutions.net/dougm/TruckEngineTeardown/ (new ISP, will update addy some day)
    4L80E (original, as far as I can tell)
    Mostly stock

    May 2009 update
    It lives!
    Rebuilt engine with new heads
    Fluidampr balancer
    Lube Specialist oil cooler kit
    FSD on Fleabay heatsink in bumper snout; new D-Tech spare behind the back seat.
    new Bosh injectors and 60G glows
    Heath composite spin-on fan and super duper clutch
    gauges still in the closet.

  15. #15
    Registered User buddy's Avatar
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    The water pump is the one used on 2000 model 6.5s. Apparantly GM realized it helped too but ended the series of truck the year after.

    The actual flow cant really be too much to some extreme point where pressure causes problems elsewhere. heat transfer is based on temp difference, so moving the fluid faster just means the water the block comes in contact with will be cooler all the time, as it wont soak up as much heat. But that doesnt mean that the thermal transfer stops it just continues. So you get more efficient heat transfer that way, because as heat is soaked (the temperature delta decreases) the efficiency of transfer goes down.

    Its easy enough to test something, but to explain the results is a lot harder, so I am not surprised if its not explained why one would flow more.
    94 6.5TD C1500 ECLB w/ 50 gallon aux tank/box; 235/75R17 tires on Alloy wheels; 3.42 gears; A-Team Turbo; 4" Aero Turbine 4040 muffler to 5" Aero Turbine 5050XL muffler to 6" tip before rear axle; FSD heatsink, marine injectors; "F" intake; SynBlend 10W-30 oil; Walbro FRB-5 w/ 12 micron prefilter; Feed The Beast; WMI and Propane fumigation; OPS extension & relay; 110K original miles; Engh GMTDScanTech
    Near Future: Battery relocation, Amsoil Nanofilter behind headlight, and stereo upgrades
    Veterans of America Club, member #18

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